Bruno Weiss Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Aw-ite, there is something to this. Earlier I posted a strange happening with a 251/1 running out in the middle of a barrage in the open and towards the enemy and my not seeing any good reason for it at all at the time. Talking version 1.11 in this case. Then someone posted another thread about infantry in the open under a barrage doing the same sort of thing. Now, a turn later in the game where the 251/1 did this, and after moving it to the rear of the barrage but still on the edge of it, it was about to do it again. I opened up the move and there was a fast move command straight out into the middle of the barrage area and towards the enemy. (Its rearward access is open, away from the enemy and more importantly away from the barrage). Moreover, there is another unit of mine in the same turn under the same barrage (which shall remain nameless for counter-intelligence reasons hehe), and upon opening the move this unit also had a fast move command straight through a woods hex smack out in the open towards the enemy. Morales for both units are normal. Coupled with the infantry thread of reports of their moving towards the enemy in the open to escape a barrage, it would seem there is an tacAI connection. If the units are going to break (with normal morale mind you), and run for cover, then it would seem IMO the best place to seek it is to the rear if/when available (in my case, both have rearward access away from the enemy and the barrage), and not out in the open towards the enemy. Whas up wit dis? Need an emergency brake setting or something. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-15-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Sounds like you forgot to invest in a Padre unit, Bruno. The Padre unit settles down all the other units in your command and helps them "do the right thing" when the going gets noisy. Just be sure he visits all the other units before the end of the set up turn and your boys will be all right. Pace, and remember to drop something in the box on the way out. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 I've seen this same thing happen in a recent 1.12 TCP/IP QB. I occupied a village in my center. My opponent had some light armor to my direct front and was moving infantry up on my left flank. I had a mortar track in the village which I moved up behind a large heavy building on the forward edge of town so it could shell the flanking infantry while hiding from the armor. But as it happened, my opponent decided that same turn to area fire the chosen building with 60mm mortars. So, during the movie, my track moved into position and fired a few rounds, but then the 60mm shells started hitting the building right beside it. My track didn't like this and decided on its on initiative to move. However, instead of falling back deeper into the village where it had just come from and where it would have been totally safe, it whipped around the corner of the building, turned 90^, and charged forward in the open right toward the enemy light armor and a quick, horrible death. Is this a common outcome? I don't know--I don't usually have halftracks of any type. But it made me mad enough that when the crew un-panicked, I ordered them out in the open to die in punishment ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 This behavior is just the TacAI taking advantage of 1.12's perceived "halftrack close-assault invincibility". Your crewmen were driving their uber-tracks in the general direction of the enemy infantry/FO in an attempt to confront them in a most nasty manner. However, the TacAI forgot about its vulnerability to indirect fire in the process. Ok, ok... So my humor is flat as stale beer (I hope Charles doesn't take offense at this...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Well whatever is causing it, I didn't see any such behavior in v1.05. It seems to have started with v1.11. And it is more than annoying, it amounts to suicide. Potentially predictable also. I just line up a good firing position, and drop a barrage on the enemy position and wait for them to wander out in front of me guns. Got to be more folks seeing this than have talked about it thus far. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 I too have seen this but my own personal view was mainly how funny it was to watch. I had a Greyhound and a Hellcat receive a Mortar stonk and both buttoned up and promplty charged into the midst of the enemy at high speed, ignoring the perfectly safe route to the rear. Needless to say they died very quickly but my only thought on the matter is that I must remember to shell any open topped vehicles I find myself. Who knows what goes through a drivers head when his opened topped vehicle is in the midst of all that whirling shrapnel. IMHO they can be excused any action they choose to take ------------------ "You wanna be starting something?" - Michael Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 At the start of their displacement, did the vehicles have LOS to the OPFOR units that eventually did them in? If not, then it actually makes sense that they would seek to get away from the immediate threat (arty/mortar raining down) as quickly as possible, i.e., full speed ahead. Reverse is slower and more awkward, as anyone who has driven a large, heavy vehicle in reverse can attest. I agree that I would be p.o.'ed if I saw one of my vehicles doing something like this, but the rationale strikes me as reasonable. Whether infantry would be subject to the same rationale is a different story, of course. ------------------ Ethan ----------- "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech." -- Dr. Kathleen Dixon, Director of Women's Studies, Bowling Green State University Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus2k Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Perhaps they could incorporate a 'Run Forest Run!' option in the command menu? Just for these occasions. Maximus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Hakko Ichiu wrote: At the start of their displacement, did the vehicles have LOS to the OPFOR units that eventually did them in? Not in my case anyway, and they weren't done in. Just acted without reason, all on their own, and in a manner which quite oddly contridicted what was apparently their objective, (to escape the barrage - by wandering straight out into the middle of it when a rearward access away from the barrage was open, and without enemy LOS). But I believe there is possibly a larger picture here. One must take into consideration the posts arising about infantry doing the same thing under similar conditions. Then too, in v1.05 it seems to me, when units were pressed by a barrage they either hunkered down, or sought cover but did not go running off towards the enemy and out into the open. Now the thought that (yeah, but a barrage is a helluva thing to go through, therefore one can be excused for wetting one's pants), is perfectly acceptable. But, IMO only to explain an incident here, or another incident there. It isn't satisfactory to me anyway, to explain this phenomena if it is taking place in numerous instances, and/or across various weapon systems. I.e., infantry, tanks, halftracks, etc. It then begins to look more like an tacAI reaction in general. But that is speculation and only based upon a few postings and a few eye witness examples. But whatever it is, it is more than an odd reaction by a stray unit with loose bladder control, and to my thinking anyway, it is not logical at all if this reaction is typical beyond the odd incident or two. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cos Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Originally posted by Bullethead: I occupied a village in my center. My opponent had some light armor to my direct front and was moving infantry up on my left flank. I had a mortar track in the village which I moved up behind a large heavy building on the forward edge of town so it could shell the flanking infantry while hiding from the armor. But as it happened, my opponent decided that same turn to area fire the chosen building with 60mm mortars. So, during the movie, my track moved into position and fired a few rounds, but then the 60mm shells started hitting the building right beside it. My track didn't like this and decided on its on initiative to move. However, instead of falling back deeper into the village where it had just come from and where it would have been totally safe, it whipped around the corner of the building, turned 90^, and charged forward in the open right toward the enemy light armor and a quick, horrible death. Is this a common outcome? I don't know--I don't usually have halftracks of any type. But it made me mad enough that when the crew un-panicked, I ordered them out in the open to die in punishment Had something similar with a HT, it was shocked after getting nailed by infantry and decided driving into them (maybe to get it's hubcabs stolen) was a good idea. I was starting to wonder if the driver was thinking of killing the squad off with the tire iron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted February 17, 2001 Share Posted February 17, 2001 Bruno Weiss said: But I believe there is possibly a larger picture here. One must take into consideration the posts arising about infantry doing the same thing under similar conditions. Then too, in v1.05 it seems to me, when units were pressed by a barrage they either hunkered down, or sought cover but did not go running off towards the enemy and out into the open. From the 1.04 README file: * Units are a little smarter about finding the "right" cover to move to when they come under fire or panic." From the 1.1 README file: * Infantry TacAI is less likely to seek cover when it would require moving closer to the enemy to reach that cover... * When faced with a threat, unarmored vehicles will sometimes seek shelter at a new destination chosen by the TacAI even when ordered to move fast or in reverse. IIRC, the 1st 2 notes primarily concerned the problem grunts had of reacting the same way to all incoming fire. So if they panicked while in foxholes under shelling, they'd get up an run like they'd taken a lot of smallarms fire, and end up dying in the bombardment. These changes seem to have mostly solved this problem and I'm no longer concerned with grunt behavior in and around barrages. The last quote seems directly applicable here, if open-topped vehicles are included in the "unarmored" category when confronted by bombardments. I don't know if that's how the game works, but it seems a reasonable assumption. Anyway, if that's the case, then this tweak doesn't seem to be working as advertised. Yup, the Tac AI is chosing new destinations for the vehicles, but it doesn't seem to be seeking shelter--quite the reverse . ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted February 17, 2001 Share Posted February 17, 2001 Why didn't you just buy assault guns, Bruno? You seem to be doing well with them in our PBEM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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