:USERNAME: Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: Jason, if you have something to contribute to the topic, ... Question: I have read a number of accounts of German AA gun airbursts on pre-registered targets (e.g. cross-roads). Effect would be similar to VT Fuses (that is UK english BTW, Lewis, but it may be too much for you to comprehend that spelling in the UK may be different from the US), I believe. I have no idea whether high-velocity guns needed LOS to the target or whether they could do indirect fire. I imagine the way it could have worked was that the German gunners established flight-time on target and then just put a delay onto their rounds to make it go boom in the air over it. But as I said, any sort of enlightening would be very welcome. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Germ I would like everyone to contribute to this topic. Hence the words Topic: Ricochet HE fire. Now, I am not the topic police nor the high or low minded police but I am really looking forward to discussing this topic. Airbursts from 88mm and other large Flak guns seems to be somewhat related but kind of off topic. I agree its interesting but maybe off-topic. I would much rather not have someone come into a thread and obscure things like what happened witth one of the origional "skipping" threads where BFG brought his MG34 beef into things. Likewise, I dont need PtrNZ comments and if you reread the thread its apparent he has an agenda or something. BTW. 88mm's could put up a deadly defense without pre arranged VT-like effects. Just read the Arhnem book from the Currahee/Seven Roads author (cant recall his name). They seem to achieve airbursts against a sudden attack by US paratroopers through a woods at close range. Wether this is from superquick detonations in the trees or some other mechanism isnt clear. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 Now Lewis, been taking the wrong pills again have we? You know what that means don't you? A consultation with Dr Slappy and you know how much you love that don't you? Leaving aside the joys of Lewis's delightful personal style I think it is unlikely that something other than an 88 has been misidentified as such in these accounts. Sure just about every German AT gun was an 88 but by all accounts the 88 had a fairly distinctive sound. The Germans were firing airburst with their 88s against the Aussies in the desert in 1941 so I would say it was a well established practise. Sydney Jary describes German high velocity guns (ie88s) firing airburst shells to interdict a crossroads his company were holding during Market Garden. Given the Germans generally defensive posture it is hardly suprising that they could preregister such targets. So airbursts from 88s on TRPs is not such a bad idea. ------------------ Muddying the waters as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rollstoy Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 I have read somewhere that in peacetime delayed action is often preferred to superquick action ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss: Also, about ricochets. The Finnish 1936 field artillery regulations state that a round may ricochet if the impact angle is 15-25 degrees (depending on terrain), and it will ricochet if the angle is less than 15 degrees. It also states that quick fuzes (that probably correspond to the American "superquicks" above) don't work reliably if the angle of impact is too small (less than 1/2 of the angle of the shell cone). The book is at home right now [so the following figures may be slightly incorrect], but it stated that with a "quick-delayed" fuze (that is, one that ignites like a quick fuze but has a 1/20 s delay before exploding), a 76K02 shell that comes on angle of 15 degrees will explode after a 13 m ricochet and it is 4 meters high at that point. This figure was for "medium ranges" (~4 km). - Tommi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the data and congrats for staying on topic. I would tend to believe that velocity would also have a effect but your reference is giving good generalities. Is this finnish and/or captured russian arty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by :USERNAME:: Germ I would like everyone to contribute to this topic. Hence the words Topic: Ricochet HE fire. Now, I am not the topic police nor the high or low minded police but I am really looking forward to discussing this topic. Airbursts from 88mm and other large Flak guns seems to be somewhat related but kind of off topic. I agree its interesting but maybe off-topic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Agreed - I have opened another thread where I have taken the liberty to copy the posts from here into the opening post. If somebody has a problem with that, please email me and I shall remove them. So we could just take that discussion over there. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015004.html ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiloIndiaAlpha Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by :USERNAME:: Its fuze in most books I read. I have seen fuse in others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Looey. You are an American and like all of your ilk have trouble with s and z (that's 'ZED' not 'ZEE'). It's fuse, not fuze. Organise, not organize. Supervise, not supervize...And your an asshole...or is that azzhole? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 15, 2001 Share Posted January 15, 2001 :USERNAME:: wrote: Thanks for the data and congrats for staying on topic. Oh dear, someone commends me on staying on topic. What will this do to my reputation of ardent tangentist (whether or not it is a valid English word). Is this finnish and/or captured russian arty? Considering that all Finnish arty at the time of writing _was_ captured from Russians in 1918, I'd say both. At the time the most important gun types in Finnish service were originally Russian: - 76K02 - 107K13 - 122H?? - 152H?? (The designations are calibere : gun type (K - "kanuuna", cannon and H - "haupitsi", howitzer) : year of the design. I forgot the age of the howitzers but one was 08/09). Even though the artillery regulations encouraged ricochet using in certain situations (for example, against uncovered trenched when timed fuzes are not available), I haven't encounter even one description of deliberately using them in battle, and I've read quite many books by former artillerymen. The closest thing happened in 19 February when the sole remaining 120 mm Armstrong gun of "Järisevä" coastal front repulsed a Soviet attack with direct fire. The first shot fell short, but it ricocheted from ice and exploded in the middle of enemy column. This was a lucky shot and the gun crew corrected the aim and tried to get direct hits on enemy tanks, finally hitting one with sixth or seventh round (the description is ambiguous). What makes this feat very remarkable was that the optics had been destroyed and the firing mechanism didn't work so a sergeant-major fired the round by hitting the firing pin with a hammer. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted January 17, 2001 Share Posted January 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiloIndiaAlpha: Hi Looey. You are an American and like all of your ilk have trouble with s and z (that's 'ZED' not 'ZEE'). It's fuse, not fuze. Organise, not organize. Supervise, not supervize...And your an asshole...or is that azzhole? Mike <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> MousyIndiaAlpha What your secret? How is it you get to use vulger language mixed with ill veiled personal threats and NOW attacks on americans too? (For anyone that cares how two-faced BTS gets; look up "this is for Lewis" in a search.) You will see the KIA man making a fool of himself, followed by the now BTS employee madmatt giving useful advice, followed by Steve doing a very good impression of my mother (Oh! my tired poor weary heart!). Good stuff. I dont have a clue what nationality you are and it doesnt matter because you belong to league of cowards. Or do you spell it cowardz? Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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