FnlWeb Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Hello All After playing many QB's an ops i decided I wanted to play an RPG as an american company commander over the course of the raminainder of the war (D-Day to VE day). So i got out pen and paper and gave all my units names and ratings that i keep from one op to the next. Of course also advancing the ratings of the units who do well and giving eliminated units new names and a green rating. I play one op per month(starting in june 44) Each op is 20 battles (but they never last that long) 30 turns each and 4 battles per day. Over the course of the op's i usually add reinforcements to equal about a battalion worth of infantry for each side. for the germans i add vehicles and such randomly by not looking at the screen while i click on the forces to be added. (wich makes for some interesting force mixes like the time they got some BIG arty. dont know what it was but it made some BIG holes in the ground and wiped out a whole company in one barrage.) OUCH! I give the above information just to see if anyone else does anything like this and to see if they have a better idea for generating the german forces. but my real question is this. I really have no idea how much armour was typically present when an infantry battalion was on the advance. i have been adding 4 tanks for each company and 3 tanks for each german company. Various shermans and TD's for the americans and whatever i happen to click on when im not looking, to the germans. Any suggestions for a more realistic armour force as to number and types? keep in mind that this is foot infantry not mounted except for my recon platoon that i give HT's and a couple of stuarts. if that would even make a difference. Thanx for any replies. Funnel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 "how much armour was typically present when an infantry battalion was on the advance"? It depends on the force type, but you aren't far off. In U.S. infantry divisions, you'd expect 2-5 tanks or 2-4 TDs per company. If a whole battalion is involved, up to 17 tanks, but 10 might be more common. With the Brits, for a whole battalion you'd expect up to 14 tanks. German infantry, the support would usually be assault guns or tank destroyers, around 10. The armor forces on all sides would have a much higher ratio of tanks. The way they would attack in CM would be more like a company or two of infantry, usually mounted by not always, to a company of tanks. That means 13-17 depending in the organization, but in combat they might well be somewhat understrength. As for the types, German infantry units would have StuG IIIs most often, in 3's, and German panzer units would have either Pz IVs, Panthers, or a mix of both, in bunchs of ~4. (So 8 and 8 is fine, as is 8 and 4 or 4 and 4, but usually not 2 and 2 or 3 and 1). The Brits would typically have bunches of 4 in which 1 was a Firefly, and 3 were standard Shermans. Or 4 Cromwell. Sometimes 4 TDs instead, though not as often as the U.S. The U.S. would generally have bunches of 4 tank destroyers (M10-18-36), and/or bunches of 5 Shermans, with 1-2 Sherman 76 included after Normandy. A few Stuarts would be common with a large group of U.S. tanks, to scout for them. U.S. TDs in large groups would have a few M-8s or M-20s instead, the scout cars. The Brits used armored cars to scout for tanks, too, especially with the Cromwells (Humbler and Daimler). Dedicated U.S. scout units did not use halftracks, they used light armor (M-8, M-20, Stuarts) and jeeps instead. (These tended to come in 2s and 3s). The half-tracked infantry for the U.S. was the armored infantry battalions, which were main combat units rather than recon. The Germans on the other hand had seperate recon units, big enough to operate independently, that included both light armor and armored infantry. A typical case would be 3 armored cars, light tanks, or gun-armed half-tracks (not mortars either), plus a platoon of Panzergrenadiers in 4 halftracks, making 7 vehicles in all. I hope this is useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 I presume the Shermans the Brits would operate would in the main be M4A3 75mm? The options screen throws up quite a lot of Sherman options (I haven't read up enough yet on who'd use what and when). I suppose the when is not so much of an issue, if it wasn't available it wouldn't be there for that time period. Availability and realistic chances of a unit having 'x' is a different matter. I am quite interested in a German recon sceanrio. Are you aware of any? Also, would they go for a specific blend of ACs? I understand the Pumas were quite rare, who if anyone would be likely yo have them? SS? And finally, what would be the likely gun armed HTs? [This message has been edited by Apache (edited 03-17-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 The armored cars would almost always be tne 20mm variety. The most common gun-armed halftrack would be the SPW-251/9, the larger of the two with a 75mm infantry gun aboard. One of those and 2 of the armored cars is a believable mix, with the 75mm used for HE (e.g. against buildings), the 20mm used against light enemy vehicles. Give the accompanying armored Pz Gdr platoon a schreck too, and if the recce guys are alone, some kind of FO (105mm the most common). The second most common gun halftrack would be the SPW-250/9, which is the 20mm on a small halfrtrack. Don't use the 250 (small) one for the 75mm. It doesn't carry enough ammo. On the British tanks, yes you are correct. There is little difference between the "II" and "V" varieties, just pick one. The serious difference is whether they have the 76mm 17-lb gun or not (= "Firefly" or not). 1 out of 4 should, the other 3 should have the 75mm. There are some scenarios I have seen that have German armored recon, but not exact. Many of them include a wide mix of vehicle types, for no good reason except to show them off or make the fight seem neato. I can only direct you to the CM-HQ to browse for them. One was about a single platoon of U.S. engineers facing a bunch of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Yeide Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Normally, infantry divisions had one company of Shermans attached to each battalion of infantry. How many tanks that might actually represent depends heavily on the timing of your scenario. After the long race across France, for example, some independent (i.e., infantry support) tank battalions were down to as few as three operational tanks at a time. The suggestion of ten in above message is probably not a bad average number. The issue of 76mm guns is more complicated than indicated above. The battalions that actually landed on D-day by and large did not receive their first 76mm Shermans until January 1945! Here is a partial list of the first use of 76mm tanks by the independent tank battalions: Aug 44: 746th, 749th, 774th Sept 44: 735th Oct 44: 70th, 737th Nov 44: 191st, 753rd Dec 44: 745th, 740th Jan 45: 709th, 741st, 743rd, 747th Feb 45: 736th Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FnlWeb Posted March 17, 2001 Author Share Posted March 17, 2001 Thanks for the info guys. I have not been having too much trouble advancing in my battles and thought that maybe i was using more tanks then was realistic. But from what you guys say it seems that 12 is not too far out there. But since im playing against the AI maybe i should reduce that to 10 just to make it a bit more challanging. Thanks again for the replys Funnel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Originally posted by Apache: I presume the Shermans the Brits would operate would in the main be M4A3 75mm? The Commonwealth would be more likely to have either TDs (organic to the infantry division) or Churchills (from independent Tank Brigades) in infantry support than Shermans. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: The Commonwealth would be more likely to have either TDs (organic to the infantry division) or Churchills (from independent Tank Brigades) in infantry support than Shermans. What is your source for this? Anti-tank regiments, at least in Canadian units, were towed 17 pounders, not self-propelled. Armour support, when available, seems always to have been Shermans. Perhaps the British situation was different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: What is your source for this? Anti-tank regiments, at least in Canadian units, were towed 17 pounders, not self-propelled. Armour support, when available, seems always to have been Shermans. Perhaps the British situation was different? During the attack on Le Havre, support came from 31st TB with Churchills - I just checked and they were then assigned to Ist British corps, part of 1st Canadian Army. They may have been withdrawn from the 1st Canadian afterwards. The TD Rgt in the British ID was towed AND SP combined, M10s and 6pdr/17pdr guns. Don't know about the Canadians, I just assumed it was similar. My sources are various UK divisional histories, of 3rd, 43rd, 49th ID, and a history of 9th RTR (Churchills), as well as histories of 7th and 11th AD and 8th AB. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 The independent Tank Brigades were of course 21st Army Group level assets, so they could be withdrawn from an army at any time. Forgot to add that. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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