German PzGr40 tungsten round availability - new (?) data

[Guest tero]

This from an other board

>PzGr40 in 1944-1945

>by Claus B (no login)

>The information can be deduced from tables >in "Waffen und Geheimwaffen.." by Hahn. I >dont have the ref by me at the moment, but >from memory:

>

>3,7cm: Plenty

>5cm: Plenty

>7,5cm KwK/PaK 40: None*

>7,5cm KwK 42: None

>7,62cm: Plenty

>8,8cm Flak: None

>8,8cm PaK: None

>

>*Actually, very little. A couple of months >expenditure at the most. From spring 1944 >probably none.

>

>Claus B

Let the jousting begin

[This message has been edited by tero (edited 03-01-2001).]

[PzKpfw 1]

Originally posted by tero:

This from an other board

Let the jousting begin

The whole Pzgr.40 subject is vauge Ie, authors state their was no Pzgr.40 after 1943 Ie, Pzgr.40/43, yet their was am Pzgr.40/44 & Pzgr.40/45 designations.

we have German AA reports into March 1945 of using Pzgr.40 vs US & Soviet tanks etc. Basicly no one historian or amature, has ever agreed on Pzgr.40 use to date.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 03-01-2001).]

[M Hofbauer]

Hahn is _good_ data, but not _new_ data.

Actually, he has the absolute numbers for the respective ammunitions, the quote you give is a gross simplification of the original source.

[ParaBellum]

Question:

In a TCP battle I checked on of my 50mm Paks and IIRC (it was late at night, after some Hefeweizen (yep, guessed right, german beer )) found out that those brave men got 2 rounds of tungsten!!

Was that just a dream, or has anyone else also encountered this situation?

It was the first time EVER that I got tungsten for my AT guns, and I use them A LOT!

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[Guest tero]

I'm just trying to clear up the justifaction for the "no-tungsten-ammo-for-Germans" decision.

[ParaBellum]

Ooops. The point was that I played the germans...

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[Vanir]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Was that just a dream, or has anyone else also encountered this situation?

It was the first time EVER that I got tungsten for my AT guns, and I use them A LOT!

I believe there is something like a 25% chance for a 50mm gun to have tungsten. For the Pak gun only, not the one on the Puma.

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What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve

[Guest tero]

>I believe there is something like a 25% chance for a 50mm gun to have tungsten.

Seems like that 75% of NOT getting it is the norm.

>For the Pak gun only, not the one on the Puma.

Which is strange as the KWK was a derivative of the PAK.... and the same KWK was used in PzKw-III and they sure as hell had PzGr40 available....

I think....

[PzKpfw 1]

Originally posted by tero:

I'm just trying to clear up the justifaction for the "no-tungsten-ammo-for-Germans" decision.

Their realy was none for it being omitted other then play balance maybe, basicly in terms of actual supply Allied tank & Ge crews would have about the same chance of haveing some T rounds, Ie, 3 -5 rounds with both sides carefuly hording them for use vs the heaviest armored opposing tanks Ie, one PzKpfw IV crew killed 3 IS-2 with PzGr.40 rounds in 1945, while another PzKpfw IV crew reported killing a Jumbo Sherman with PzGr.40 etc, so German tanks still had some PzGr.40 late in the war, & it had to come from somewhere.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[JoePrivate]

It's been awhile since I checked this but in CM the Pak38 has a small(very small) chance of getting tungsten, but only from Jun-Dec44, after that nothing. I use the Pak38 a lot and hardly ever see any, maybe one or two rounds for one gun is all in a battle.

[:USERNAME:]

Originally posted by tero:

Which is strange as the KWK was a derivative of the PAK.... and the same KWK was used in PzKw-III and they sure as hell had PzGr40 available....

I think....

I believe the 50mmL60 PAK and KWK (unlike the 75mmL46 PAK and 75mmL48 KWKW) fired the same ammo.

I would guess that elite units like the puma mech recon would get priority on this ammo. Who knows. It certainly would make them fighting-recon.

[Claus B]

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

The whole Pzgr.40 subject is vauge Ie, authors state their was no Pzgr.40 after 1943 Ie, Pzgr.40/43, yet their was am Pzgr.40/44 & Pzgr.40/45 designations.

we have German AA reports into March 1945 of using Pzgr.40 vs US & Soviet tanks etc. Basicly no one historian or amature, has ever agreed on Pzgr.40 use to date.

And probably never will.

The fact that there were a PzGr 40/44 and 40/45 may only mean that they were designed, perhaps built and tested. It does not mean that these PzGr 40 variants were available at the front in numbers.

The fact that we have combat reports from 1945 mentioning PzGr 40 (for what gun?) only shows that someone, somewhere had stashed away a few rounds. That does not translate to every German gun in every theater at any time having them (what are the source for these reports?)

Hahns figures are the only ones I've ever seen that put numbers on production and expenditure through most of the war for most guns. It is old data and it is incomplete (the numbers does not always add up) but it is the only reliable source I know that has such figures.

By the way, the US 57mm AT-gun is generally recognized to have had only plain AP ammo (AP and APC IIRC). We also have combat reports from US units in the Ardennes firing both sabot and HE from the 57mm guns, the ammo most likely comming from British sources. Does this mean that a wargame should have the US 57mm AT-gun with sabot and HE as a rule?

Claus B

[This message has been edited by Claus B (edited 03-02-2001).]

[Guest tero]

Had I known you frequent this board I would have asked you to post the data here directly.

Do you have any data on the American 76mm tunsten ammo, more specifically how widespread it was distributed among the Shermans ? All the sources I have and I have been able to find state vaguely that "some rounds may have been obtained/scavenged/absconded by the crews". And rather curiously only by the crews. The role of the logistics people is glarinly absent and obscure.

[Abteilung]

Going to Gas cutting techniques for armor and high quality steel in 1944 freed up some of the dwindling stocks of tungsten to be used in ammo.Their method previous to the use of oxy-acetalene and other gas mixtures was to use tungsten tipped tools to cut. Obviously a pzkpfw iv or lesser gun tank would almost require sub caliber rounds to be effective by 1944. The BACKBONE of the panzer units was the Panzer IV, is is not concievable the Germans would provide these rounds to their crews if at all available, even if on a limited basis. For those of you who think Germany had no tungsten at or near war's end, I challenge you to look into consumer production figures in Germany from 1943-1945.....Do they run out or experience a severe shortage of products which also require tungsten (lightbulbs for example). The figure you will find will indicate the material becomes a great deal more valauble, but nonetheless, remained in circulation and available.

[PzKpfw 1]

Originally posted by Claus B:

And probably never will.

The fact that we have combat reports from 1945 mentioning PzGr 40 (for what gun?) only shows that someone, somewhere had stashed away a few rounds. That does not translate to every German gun in every theater at any time having them (what are the source for these reports?)

Claus B

Both the 7.5cm L/48 & 7.5cm L/70 the source was an incomplete set of translated AA reports on combat from Sept 44 on from vartious German unitsthat i stumbled on & were lost in a HD crash .

And no Claus it doesn't mean every German tank had Pzgr.40 just like US tanks T rounds were rare. But by mosts reckoning German T production ended in early 1943, so does this mean these tank crews brought their Pzgr.40 rounds with them everywhere they went freom 1943 - 1945 as well, this is my problem with the hoarding Pzgr.40 theories.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[Claus B]

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Both the 7.5cm L/48 & 7.5cm L/70 the source was an incomplete set of translated AA reports on combat from Sept 44 on from vartious German unitsthat i stumbled on & were lost in a HD crash .

Sorry to hear that.

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

And no Claus it doesn't mean every German tank had Pzgr.40 just like US tanks T rounds were rare. But by mosts reckoning German T production ended in early 1943, so does this mean these tank crews brought their Pzgr.40 rounds with them everywhere they went freom 1943 - 1945 as well, this is my problem with the hoarding Pzgr.40 theories.

Even though production did stop in 1943, quanteties of PzGr40 were stocked for industrial use. I am not shure if this included 7,5cm PzGr40 (Hahn has the numbers somewhere), but if so, they could be been retrieved again later when the 7,5cm PaK/KwK proved inadequate in late 1944.

As someone else pointed out, the Germans did have tungsten available to the end of the war and Hahns figures show that they had plenty of 3,7cm, 5cm and 7,62cm PzGr40 available even after 1943. So another possibility could be that 7,62cm ammo was re-worked to 7,5cm ammo.

I have no data on this, it is just examples that just because production stopped in 1943, it does not mean that all available ammo was issued at the time and that German tank crews drove around for years with these rounds.

As for US 76mm HVAP rounds, I recall a figure of a 1944 production of 10.000 rounds pr. month (from one of the Green Books I think). Most sources seems to agree that it was introduced in August 1944 but only became commonplace in 1945.

I'll look it up one of these days.

Claus B