tooz Posted September 29, 2003 Share Posted September 29, 2003 To all the grogs out there...I am currently researching the battle of Borisov in '41 for an upcoming op. I don't have my books with me (I live and work in China) and the internet search engines are limited to Yahoo! Does any one have any detailed info they can share with me on the battle? I am looking for a good OB (more detailed than "18th Panzer Divison", for example). I have a GREAT map but looking for details, details, details. If any one can send me links for webpages that describe this fierce battle I'd appreciate it. Russian websites are also welcome (I speak and read Russian). How do I say "grognard" in Russian? Bolshoye vam spaseba! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Lafitte Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I just looked in my copy of Glantz's "The Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front" and found an AAR from two officers of the 7th Pz Div concerning the "Breakout from Borisov" in July, 1941. 7th PD, as you know, was von Luck's unit in 1941. Pz Rgt 25, as far as I can tell from portions of the book, used Pzkw IV, Pzkw 38(t), and Pzkw II. I don't know whether they had any Pzkw III types. 7 PD attacked north of Minsk. The book also has detailed info about 3 PD and 4 PDs attacks across the Beresina River in July, 1941. 3 PD seems to have been better equipped than 7 or 4 PD, because we find more halftracks and Pz III types in 3PD. No much info on the opposing Soviet forces, other than they were dug in and provided stout resistance. This book is the best I have ever seen on East Front war in 1941. What else can I help you with? [ October 03, 2003, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Jean Lafitte ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 Thanks for the response, but my references have the 18th Danzer Division doing the fighting here at Borisov (sources; Panzer Leader, Hitler Moves East, Road To Stalingrad) which confirms the OBs used in the previously released CM conversions of the old COI Scenario "Breakout From Borisov". I was able to find some good sites, but my search engines here are limited. So the question remains, was it the 18th Panzer or, as you write, the 3rd Panzer Division? This is what has plagued me and other researchers for years, different works give different info. Do you have a link I can browse that supports your OB? For the Russians I did find info on the "Borisov Tank School" which consisted of cadets being forced into the fighting, but I can't find what tanks they used. I know the Moscow Motorized Divison had T-34s and KVs(and those sorely missed T-28s)plus the usual allotment of "crap" BTs and T-26s. My main handicap is that all of my books are in storage back in the 'states, hence this request for help. Any info you can provide via weblinks to confirm your view will be appreciated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Lafitte Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 [/QB] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted October 11, 2003 Author Share Posted October 11, 2003 Jean, je vous remercie infiniment! I forgot to mention that I do have Glantz's IP book, but alas, that too is tucked away in Connecticut. I am working on an operation, not a battle, so it should be different from the other two battles available in CMBB, not to mention larger in scale. What I need is an accuarte OB, as listed above. If you have a detailed OB for the 18th Panzer (this is the focus of the op, their crossing and breakthrough), and not the 7th Panzer. True, having Mk IIIs is better than Czech tanks, but most of the main battle tanks here will be the MkIIIs with the 37mm gun. How they stand up to the T-34s (making their first appearance in Barbarossa) and KVs is left to be seen. Some of these MkIIIs were submersible, carried over from the cancelled Sea Lion Invasion but sadly, CM cannot depict their amphibious abilities. The op follows the 18th Panzer Regiment, therefore I need a company level OB for most of the troops. Any detail will be welcome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Lafitte Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I'm in the same boat as you, since we have the same books on the topic. IP has detailed OB for a number of PDs, but not the 18th PD. I hope somebody can bail us out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flesh Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Here's the best I could come up with from the web. The info is not very detailed, but it might help you to come up with a "generic" OOB, if all else fails. Info on the German forces -------------------------- http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/germany/pzdivs062241.html Info on the Russian forces -------------------------- http://militera.lib.ru/h/fugate/app.html Hope this helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 You should have OOB info down to Coy level in Glantz. Just substract a few breakdowns and stuff and you are there. Here is some info from Lexikon der Wehrmacht for the 1941 Panzerdivision: Kdo Panzerbrigade 1 Panzerregiment Stab mit Nachrichten-Zug (2 PzBefw, 1 PzKpfw III) le.Pz.Zug (5 PzKpfw II) 2 Panzerabteilungen zu je Stabskompanie mit Nachrichten-Zug (2 PzBefw, 1 PzKpfw III) le.Pz.Zug (5 PzKpfw II) 2 le.Pz.Kp. - Kompanietrupp (2 PzKpfw III) - leichter Zug (5 PzKpfw II) - 1. Zug (5 PzKpfw III) - 2. Zug (5 PzKpfw III) - 3. Zug (5 PzKpfw III) 1 m. Pz.Kp. - Kompanietrupp (2 PzKpfw IV) - leichter Zug (5 PzKpfw II) - 1. Zug (4 PzKpfw IV) - 2. Zug (4 PzKpfw IV) - 3. Zug (4 PzKpfw IV) Ersatz- Staffel (2 PzKpfw II, 3 PzKpfw III, 1 PzKpfw IV) - nicht bei allen Abteilungen vorhanden. Leichte Kolonne Pz.Abt. (Troß) 1 Panzer-Werkstatt-Kp. Kdo Schützenbrigade mit 2 Schützenregiment (mot.) Stabskompanie mit Nachrichten-Zug (mot.), Kradmeldezug, Pionierzug 2 SchützenBataillone (mot.) mit je Stab mit Nachrichtenzug 3 SchützenKp. (mot.) (je 18 le.M.G., 2 s.M.G., 3 le.GrWf.) 1 schwere Kp.(mot.) (8 s.M.G., 6 mGrWf) 1 Geschütz-Kompanie (mot.) (2 le. I.G., 3 Pak – versch. Modelle-, Pionierzug) 1 Infanterie-Kolonne (mot.) 1 Infanterie-Geschütz-Kp (mot.) (4 le. I.G., 2 s. I.G.) Both 3. and 18.PD only had one Company mounted in SPW, not a whole battalion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 Thanks guys, Andreas, do you have a website I can check for the designation of these units and their respective number ID for those units that comprised the 18th Panzer? In other words, 1st Company, Recon Bttln ???, Panzer Pioneer Company ???, etc. I want to identify as many units as possible. Note that I had a detailed OB for both sides but this info is buried somewhere under papers and boxes in Connecticut. It has been a struggle to regain this data. Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate and will use all that you grogs can muster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Kein Problem. Lexikon der Wehrmacht has all you may possibly want. In German. 18.PD from Lexikon der Wehrmacht 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 Andreas, great, great job--thanks for the help. We will mention you in the players notes (you too, Jean) for the help. Now getting the Russian Ob broken down into more detail is the next hurdle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Here is a bit more info on the 1st Moscow Motorised RD. I think I have a Soviet officer memoir at home by an officer who served in it. Need to dig for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 Cool! Thanks again, Andreas. Although you can never have too much info, at least I have enough info for a decent OB. I'm still looking for a detailed AAR. I had one, use six years ago which related how a daring tank commander "bounced" one bridge before the startled (or frightened)Engineer team could blow the bridge. The Russians fled, giving the Germans their bridge. Again, that info is also missing. Maybe someone can unearth it or find a site? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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