Simon Fox Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 Well John sarcasm begets sarcasm and hyperbole begets hyperbole so you are obviously adverse to your own medicine. That is despite your protestations of "I could care less". How easy for you to dismiss those who question the absolutism of your opinion or reliance on a particular vein of evidence as lacking understanding ("what part of the German tests results is so hard for ppl to understand?") or prone to unreasoning "National pride". <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm here to share & learn & I have an opinion, if you dont like my posting here etc then don't read it, or post data that contradicts the tests , or explain to me why these test results are incorrect etc, if my post was a 'hyberbole' why answer it with another one?, I have more then qualified my comments here IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So in future I am to assume that if I don't like something you write I should restrain myself from responding and immediately assume that I will never agree with anything you write? So far no one has disputed the data you cite, just their relevance to the conclusions you draw. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now your sarcasm aside, the figure of 150m is recited in FJ diaries from men whom made the jump, so I'm, not ignoreing first hand accounts Ie, Adolf Strauch's diary for entry for 20 May says jump height was 500ft (150m).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I merely wanted clarification. Where did he jump by the way? Personally I think jump height is largely irrelevant since they're all heading downwards. Excepting of course that it puts the JU52s close enough for small arms fire to hit them. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If your interested in how many died in chutes compared to out of harness etc,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am not really interested at all. I am interested in how you come by such blanket statements as: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>from the posts here you would think Aussie, & NZ Inf were dropping 9 outa 10 Paras in the air in 10 shots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Australlian tales of killing German paras in the air, are just that tales. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Since neither of them are supported by the evidence. Nor do you cite which of these mysterious Australian or Kiwi "tales" or "anecdotes" you are arguing against. Unless you are suggesting that no FJs were hit in the air (killed or wounded)? Perhaps a more useful exercise would be to attempt to explain logically the dichotomy between the many anecdotal stories and the other evidence rather than just blindly dismiss one lot of evidence as incredible. I will leave that up to you since you wish to "share" and can "learn" best by doing. I suggest you start by questioning the very existence of the dichotomy. You can rest assured John that I never edit my posts to reduce the sarcasm or irony content. After all it's good clean fun and any sooking is entirely the responsibility of the recipient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox: Well John sarcasm begets sarcasm and hyperbole begets hyperbole so you are obviously adverse to your own medicine. That is despite your protestations of "I could care less". How easy for you to dismiss those who question the absolutism of your opinion or reliance on a particular vein of evidence as lacking understanding ("what part of the German tests results is so hard for ppl to understand?") or prone to unreasoning "National pride". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Adversity begets adversity eh Simon. I haben't dismissed anything, nor is my opinion 'absolute' I have not seen my opinion rebufferd no nor have I seen anthing presented yet to change it, which I would welcome. My statement was a blunt one, I'm rather blunt Simon as you should well know by now, I asked a question I guess I should have framed it better. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Since neither of them are supported by the evidence. Nor do you cite which of these mysterious Australian or Kiwi "tales" or "anecdotes" you are arguing against. Unless you are suggesting that no FJs were hit in the air (killed or wounded)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It was a generalisation Simon many accounts tell of German Paras being gunned down in droves, off the top of my head, Austrtalian troops anecdotes from the Galatos area tell of killing 'hundreds' of FJ in the air etc. & no I'm not saying no FJ died in the air but it was a very small % if anything not the "Large numbers of German paras killed in the air as they descended" etc. I have asked for a number to clarify what number 'Large' denotes as well, but gotten only silence. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Perhaps a more useful exercise would be to attempt to explain logically the dichotomy between the many anecdotal stories and the other evidence rather than just blindly dismiss one lot of evidence as incredible. I will leave that up to you since you wish to "share" and can "learn" best by doing. I suggest you start by questioning the very existence of the dichotomy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I figured someone, if they had objections to my posts would provide some insight into where I was wrong other then snide remarks & perhaphs some material. I am not dismissing the anecdotal evidence I used both anecdotal & printed information to arrive at my opinion Ie, FJ accounts,casualties & the German LF tests vs airborne targets. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You can rest assured John that I never edit my posts to reduce the sarcasm or irony content. After all it's good clean fun and any sooking is entirely the responsibility of the recipient. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL Ok . Strauch jumped at Retimo. Regards, John Waters [ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 18, 2001 Author Share Posted July 18, 2001 MikeT: the Aussie flag BMP is perfect. It will work nicely in the desert as well as the Aegean. [whistles several bars of "Waltzing Matilda" and fixes bayonet.] I also enjoyed seeing your '39-'40 French & Polish uniforms. thanks for the JPEGs. as this thread has gotten rather bloody and my mission has been accomplished, i'll work my way around the carnage and find the door. Perhaps the Royal Navy can evacuate me to Alexandria as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ: Feel free to make a fool of yourself any other time you want to contradict what actually happened, and is attested to by both side. Organ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sigh, feel free to post 'what actualy happened', & enlighten this poor Fool oh great, wise, magnificant one. Ie, that 'large' numbers of FJ died in their harnesses in the air etc, etc, etc. As to whom attests to what? I have German anadotal accounts that speak nothing of anyone being hit in the air, except when describeing JU-52's being shot down by AA at 150m with full loads of FJ trapped inside. German medical records from 7th FD, tell of only a 'few' FJ found dead in their harnesses the records do not support any claim that large numbers of German FJ died in their harneses in the air, the bulk of FJ casualties were suffered on the ground while attempting to get to wpns cannisters & form up. If you have data that contradicts the 7 FD medical records etc, then by all means please post it, so we may all check it out etc. Regards, John Waters [ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 Is there a Crete operation or scenario coming out soon or what? If not I'll be forced to make one myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: As to whom attests to what? I have German anadotal accounts that speak nothing of anyone being hit in the air, except when describeing JU-52's being shot down by AA at 150m with full loads of FJ trapped inside. German medical records from 7th FD, tell of only a 'few' FJ found dead in their harnesses the records do not support any claim that large numbers of German FJ died in their harneses in the air, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So which do you wish to tell us about? the "few" or the none? How many is "a few"? Do you have exact numbers? How many others were stripped of their gear by locals or allied soldiers, or even by their comrades? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> the bulk of FJ casualties were suffered on the ground while attempting to get to wpns cannisters & form up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No-one has suggested otherwise. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If you have data that contradicts the 7 FD medical records etc, then by all means please post it, so we may all check it out etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Would you care to actually post the records, together with an account of exactly what happened to each and every body between the frop time and the time the records were assembled? Otherwsise the records themselves mean nothing except to state the conditino, position, etc of each body on the day it was inspected. You can make a reasonable assumption that those stil in their harnesses were indeed shot in them, but you cannot jump to the conclusion that those not in harnesses were shot on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 to quote my late grandfather here: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>when I went from the supply unit to the Fallschirmjaeger, all of us had to fill out a form. I put a big cross in the square "nicht springen" (don't jump). I wasn't so stupid to let me get shot while still in the air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> well, it doesn't REALLY help in the context of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 23, 2001 Author Share Posted July 23, 2001 i'll have some Crete/Corinth/Aegean scenarios available within the week. some will require Clubfoot's beach conversion kit and an Aussie unit flag BMP (to be swapped with the Canadian BMP) that will be included with the zip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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