The German tank destruction medal

[Forever Babra]

Originally posted by RMC:

Is it certain that Viezenz was an Oberstleutnant (LTC) and not an Oberleutnant (1LT)?

While I am no expert by any means on German rank insignia, there are four distinct bars on his collar visible in the pic. An Oberleutnant would have only three. Also, the pic comes from a German-language web site, which is less likely to make that sort of error.

Re senior officers at the front, there is some debate as to whether the morale effect on the lower ranks witnessing such scenes outweighs the loss of control inherent in such activity. Certainly Rommel's biographers have laid this charge at his door. But, if an officer is already out of contact and has no control to begin with, he loses nothing and gains everything by going forward. I'm wondering if the latter situation didn't occur in the German Army more frequently than we might suppose.

In the case of Viezenz, 21 tank destruction badges would definitely indicate either some sort of hot-head or the unluckiest Colonel in the Wehrmacht. But, as Armornut suggests, he still had balls as big as church bells.

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"Good for burn infantry. WERY cheap!"

[Wilko]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

While I am no expert by any means on German rank insignia, there are four distinct bars on his collar visible in the pic. An Oberleutnant would have only three. Also, the pic comes from a German-language web site, which is less likely to make that sort of error.

IIRC the white swirled (braided?) shoulder tabs mean that someone is at least a major, the metal "stars" on top of that make him a colonel.

The lieutenant shoulder tabs are white stripes that lie parallel to one another, with 1st lieutenant etc. getting those metal "stars" on top of that tab.

(Dunno if "tabs" and "stars" are the correct English terms for these objects, but since English is not my primary language, please excuse the possible miscommunication)

Wilko

--

Wilko van den Bergh

quibus(a t)europe(d o t)com

Eindhoven - The Netherlands - Europe

"Look Mum: No sense!" © 2001 by Wilko

[RMC]

I can't make out the rank insignia in that picture. The epaulets don't look like the thicker interleaved braid of field grade officers to me. I can't see any of the pips either.

He may very well be that he is an Oberstleutnant but the fact that he has so many kills leads me to suspect otherwise and right now from that picture I can't confirm one way or another.

Oberleutnant:

Oberstleutnant: (here with some extra unit specific markings)

This is really weak but comparing those two pictures to the photo the rank looks closer to the Oberleutnant than Oberstleutnant because of the fabric around the button.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

[b}

Bäke was a dentist. The interesting thing about Bäke's Panzervernichtungsabzeichen was that he got them despite being a tank commander. In other words, he earned them while bailed/on foot outside his destroyed tank.

What does this say about the "gamey-ness" of having tank crews fight as infantry? Maybe BTS should issue them all gammon grenades?

[Michael Dorosh]

Come to think of it, look at the collar of the field blouse in the photo. It looks like an enlisted man's jacket - officer's collars were a little higher. The straps do look like a lieutenant's, but of course, it is very difficult to discern.

If he is listed as Oberstleutnant on a website, there is a possiblity that could even refer to a rank he achieved postwar.

He seems like what the Yanks call a Mustang to me - someone promoted to officer's status from the ranks.

Also, a web search turned up the following

Viezenz--Commander,10th Co., Grenadier regt. 7, 252nd Infantry Division

A Lieutenant Colonel was generally a battalion commander, a senior lieutenant was

generally a company commander.

While it would not be unheard of for a lieutenant to command a battalion (there is at least one instance of a REGIMENT being surrendered by a lieutenant commander, all the other officers being dead), it did not often work in reverse that a lieutenant colonel commanded a company.

Of course, it was a long war, and perhaps this one reference (all I could find with Google) referred to something early in the war when he was still a lieutenant.

One doesn't find many phenomenal jumps through the ranks in the German Army, though. Rommel was a colonel in 1939 just as Eisenhower was; both went to the top (Ike even had a special rank created just for him) but they were the exceptions.

Would it be common for a lieutenant (or come to that, an ex-enlisted man) to make it all the way to lieutenant colonel in the German Army?

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 04-05-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Did some more searches on Google, including a really annoying page that won't let you right click to copy and paste. The arrogant nerve!

Anyway, they list Viezenz as a lieutenant colonel with 21 kills.

Note the photo, though. It does not show 21 kills on his arm - a gold badge was 5 and a silver 1. The photo shows him with 19 kills on his arm. 21 kills would show only 5 badges (4 gold, 1 silver). He is wearing 7 badges, the only combination I can see this being is 3 gold and 4 silver.

So it is possible he is a lieutenant here and later made lieutenant colonel (with two more kills) or it is possible he is a LTC here, too, and we are simply not looking at the straps correctly. Given his decorations (Winter War medal, infantry assault, but no close combat clasp) it is hard to decide what is more likely.

[M Hofbauer]

1. I never said that Bäke was not a doctor nor that dentists are not doctors. I just wanted to share the funny fact that in civilian life he was a dentist.

2. Günther Viezenz did not write a book. In fact, he was very reserved about his wartime experiences and refused to talk about them with anybody, especially historians.

3. The thing about bars on the collar is total hogwash. The only differentiation you could make out from the collar would be between enlisted, NCOs, officers and generals, but within those groups they are all alike, hence a Lt will have the same collar as a LTC.

4. Viezenz was an Oberleutnant (~1st Lt) and commanding officer of 10./Gren.Rgt.7 (10th Company of Grenadier regiment 7). After the war he joined the Bundeswehr and eventually attained the rank of Oberst (~Colonel) before retiring.

5. As regards the likeliness of beiled tank crews to participate in active fighting or even to kill enemy tanks, you might want to discuss this with Jeff Duquete since Mr Duquette is of the opinion that these crews after bailing immediately went home or surrendered, but did not fight any more at all. But please, *you* try to discuss that with him.

sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

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"OK, I stand corrected, but that still doesn't sound effective as the Germans still did lose the war." (Maximus)

[Michael Dorosh]

Gee, Hof, all you had to do is say "Mikey was right" - would have saved you all that typing.

I don't see the point of getting abusive with Jeff. I honestly don't see many tank crews running around trying to blow up tanks; the PF was not standard armament for bailed out tank crews. While they indeed may ahve been pressed into other service, perhaps even often, how often would a tank crew be responsible for the single handed kill of an enemy tank within 30 minutes of bailing out of an AFV?

You will have to excuse our Western thought patterns here - in Allied armies, tank crews were considered specialists and were under orders to return, if possible, to friendly lines when baled out.

Then again, we let pilots go home after 25 or 50 or 100 missions, whereas the Germans made their pilots fly until they were dead. As stated before, the Germans did just about everything they could do differently than the British, Americans, Canadians, etc.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

3. The thing about bars on the collar is total hogwash. The only differentiation you could make out from the collar would be between enlisted, NCOs, officers and generals, but within those groups they are all alike, hence a Lt will have the same collar as a LTC.

Of course, you could also tell the wearer's branch of service - while enlisted men stopped wearing waffenfarbe krakenpatten in 1940, officers retained branch-distinctive collar patches until the bitter end.

My point about the collar was that it would be more likely for an enlisted man who was promoted to officer to retain his old uniform and simply upgrade the insignia. A lieutenant colonel would probably not have served as an enlisted man, while an oberleutnant quite commonly may have served "in the ranks" first. The collar of the uniform in the photo Forever Babra posted was what led me to suspect this was a junior officer rather than a field grade officer. While you are correct that the "collar tabs" will not differentiate between officer ranks, the style of jacket often can be another useful tool in determining a person's history.

Can you tell us whether or not the officer in question ever served in the ranks or not? It is also possible he simply preferred an enlisted man's uniform even if he never was one himself. Some officers dressed down in that manner to avoid being sniper bait.

[M Hofbauer]

Mike,

the thing you are looking for are "Kragenplatten" (literally: collar plates).

"Kraken" are squids

sorry but even though it's just a typo on your part it was too damn funny to pass up on

as regards the uniform, well, sometimes they wore whatever they could lay their hands on. Would have to do some reading on that. The picture is poor, not a lot to guess from there.

The difference between Bäke and your example about OLt Anding is that Anding was famous for his actions in a spectacular Panzerfaust display with a british (conflicting information: russian)armored column on the receiving end in late 1945 (April). In the confined space of an urban area they halted the column by destroying the leading and end vehicles, and then went on to destroy the whole column like shooting fish in a barrel.

His tank hunter group took out the entire column, with Anding destroying 6 tanks and 5 armored cars, his CO, Maj Walle, had 9 kills, and a third soldier, OGefr Stützle, had 7 kills. This action took place while Anding was essentially serving as a footsoldier.

Bäke's famous for being one of the highest decorated soldiers per se.

IIRC he got his three kills during battle after having bailed from his tank during the battle of Kursk in 1943.

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"OK, I stand corrected, but that still doesn't sound effective as the Germans still did lose the war." (Maximus)

[Michael Dorosh]

Hof - thanks for the correction on the spelling. You mean German officers didn't wear squids on their collars?

The three GD Knight's Cross winners you mention were engaged against the British - according to a post at feldgrau.com, anyway. Presumably Coldstream Guards. I would like to do a scenario based on this action - do you have any detailed info? I have the location of the action on my page at

http://grossdeutschland.freehosting.net/knights.htm (I think that is the URL, I am at work) but would love to find out more about this particular engagement.

[Forever Babra]

Like I said, I'm no expert at German rank insignia. I used the "subdued rank insignia" table at http://www.kneller.com/Wehrmacht/ to reach my conclusion.

The standard rank table might have been more appropriate.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

Like I said, I'm no expert at German rank insignia. I used the "subdued rank insignia" table at http://www.kneller.com/Wehrmacht/ to reach my conclusion.

The standard rank table might have been more appropriate.

No worries. The listings on that site seem a little incomplete; there really doesn't seem to be a definitive online source of info about German Army ranks. I added a little table of my own to my GD site but could use some feedback before I link it to the site itself, if anyone can help out.

http://grossdeutschland.freehosting.net/ranks.htm

[Michael Dorosh]

Herr Hofbauer - the link Babra gives provides a link to a German site that lists the following:

"Kragenpatten"

I rechecked my sources and this is the correct term. I had the g wrong, but there is no "l" in it, either!

[RMC]

The correct term is actually Kragenspiegel. Platten could be OK as platten actually has a meaning. Patten does not.

[M Hofbauer]

Mike,

Your german ranks look very fine to me. Fabulous - Bravo!

that http://www.kneller.com/Wehrmacht/ URL doesn't work for me.

RMC is right. Definitely an L required. Unlike your Squids, there isn't even a german word "Patten".

Funny thing about that plural of Hauptmann. Never thought about it before. Yes, Hauptleute definitely sounds very unusual. Though technically correct, it sounds even more unusual than the (probably technically incorrect) Hauptmänner. Maybe Hauptleut RMC can shed some light on this by checking with his german equivalents on the next social function he shares with them.

Funny thing about the Hauptman is that while researching a bit in history for the tests have to grade, I came across the fact that the term "Hauptmann" was used to describe the title of sopmeone who lead a corporation/alliance of several knights in late medieval "germany". I am not sure if this is the root of the term. I am also not sure if you can simply translate it as "main man". There is definitely something with the "Haupt" in the sense of the latin "caput" / english "head" (as in "head of state") which is of course the root of why "Haupt-xy" means "main xy".

Interesting, all that. Commendation for your table!

btw., off the back of my head, Wachtmeister was also used in Nachschubtruppen (supply troops) (not sure yet if only the horse drawn supply troops or all of em), and in Nachrichtentruppen (signal).

Wachtmeister (watch/guard master) was an old title for the soldier responsible for the organization of the (camp) guard shifts during night bivouacing in late medieval times.

[RMC]

Hmm, I would have thought that Hauptleute would have corresponded to the American usage of "Company Grade" officers, but I see in the Reibert that the distinction is still made between Leutnante and Hauptleute. I don't think that Hauptleute is meant as a plural designation for more than one Hauptmann. I'll try to find out what it is supposed to convey at the Frühlingsball in Walldürn. Hauptmann Müller might know. Perhaps it is used because of the other ranks at that grade: Stabsarzt, Stabsapotheker, Stabsveterinär and even Rittmeister.

Majors and above are easy as Stabsoffiziere corresponds to Field Grade officers.

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks for the great help, guys. I hope you don't mind if I turn to you in future for assistance of this nature.

I have three sources that use the word "kragenpatten"

Litzenspiegel "braid mirrors" were the waffenfarbe stripes on the collar patch. Kragenpatten (or simply patten) were the tab itself. Admittedly, my sources are in English (Brian Davis is one of them), but can this many references really have the same spelling error?

I am trying to find my WW II German-English military dictionary. Is it possible this is a word no longer in use in German?

[Michael Dorosh]

Also - in English, I believe "Captain" also comes from a medieval root.

One of my sources also lists Kompanieoffiziere, so I don't doubt the term also applies. I should probably make mention of that on the site.

[Banshee]

What do you call a person who fails medical school?

A Dentist!

[Dragoon2/1]

Have to agree with everyone about the good colonel (LTC) having some big brass cojones!

Since I reached the rank of Staff Sergeant before I was lobotomized and commissioned,,,my comment is: If an officer did this much damage,,,imagine what the Troopers did! I have read that dismounted tankers were not quite as frightened of the tanks and some of the infantry may have been.

[M Hofbauer]

Ok, Mike, I have to admit it, you win!

I've looked up my extensive etymologic german dictionary and yes indeed there is a word "Patten" and it even refers to strengthened/double fabric on clothing such as on cuffs etc. So I guess your sources really do mean "Patten".

Have to admit I never heard that word before and it seems rather unusual/obsolete. That does not mean that back then (WW2) it might very well have been the correct technical term for collar tab.

The Kraken are still squids, however.

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Ok, Mike, I have to admit it, you win!

I've looked up my extensive etymologic german dictionary and yes indeed there is a word "Patten" and it even refers to strengthened/double fabric on clothing such as on cuffs etc. So I guess your sources really do mean "Patten".

Have to admit I never heard that word before and it seems rather unusual/obsolete. That does not mean that back then (WW2) it might very well have been the correct technical term for collar tab.

The Kraken are still squids, however.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poor Germans! The bohunk (look THAT up in Der Funk and Wagnall's!) from Canada keeps telling you about your language!

Seriously though, I appreciate the dialogue. You've been a great help, and it is good to exercise our brains in this manner. I am glad to get some confirmation, because you tend to know your stuff, so if you raise doubts about something I said, I take it quite seriously. Thanks for being big enough to let me know I got something right for a change.

[RMC]

I'd almost be willing ot bet that Kragenpatten is a term used by tailors and such.

Real men say Kragenspiegel.

[Skipper]

> But in WW2 it seems the Germans were the

> only ones with senior officers in the

> thick of it consistently enough to be

> notable.

Err... ahem... so, who won?

I remember an awful lot of accounts of senior Soviet generals personally leading their troops in assault... most of these in the breakthroughs from cauldrons of summer 1941.