Command Tanks and Morale in CM2?

[Tiger]

I was thinking about the possibility of adding Command & Morale for tanks in CM2. They are after all crewed by men who should be susceptible to morale factors.

Some unit histories I've been perusing will have a diary entry along the lines of: "engaged two heavy enemy tanks, lots of fireworks, enemy tanks retreated".

In CMBO for example, players have complete control over their tanks, though occasionally tanks will back off and fire smoke to obscure themselves from threats.

I'd like to see AFVs have their own morale similiar to infantry units:

AFVs can be ok, ok!, shaken, panicked, routed.

I'm not sure if an AFV could be "pinned" though.

To do this There would have to be a command-vehicle on the battle field; maybe have available a "command vehicle" you could purchase if you so desired. These command vehicles could then be assigned random attributes: command, combat, morale, and stealth bonuses (0, +1, +2) just like infantry platoon commanders, but useable only for vehicles. The cost to purchase a command vehicle would be slightly higher than a "non-command" vehicle to prevent players from choosing all command vehicles, though you could choose no command type vehicles if you so desired.

This could even allow for inferior Soviet AFV communication, by raising the cost to purchase Soviet command vehicles (not always, just during the correct time-frame during the conflict).

-Tiger

[ 04-16-2001: Message edited by: Tiger ]

[Username]

I agree. See aslo the Russian Tank Platoon thread.

Even non-penetrating hits should have a morale effect. In my opinion, even non-hits (the supersonic crack passing by) should have some morale effect.

The reason so many AP rounds are needed to destroy vehicles is because tanks arent stupid. If they are being targetted, and they cant identify who/what is shooting at them, they take evasive action. Its extremely rare that a vehicle has the "TigerI" syndrome of just charging into all forms of fire with the assurance that they are "immune".

Its often a platoon commanders call. He quickly ascertains the sitrep and makes a decision. Discretion is the better part of valour and its reflected in german doctrine. Tanks are valuable and not to be just wasted.

So I would like to see platoons of tanks pulling back and popping smoke together. Anything that limits the omnispotting uber-coordination is a welcome addition for me.

Lewis

[109 Gustav]

Tiger, you're just trying to get the Porche KT included, aren't you?

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

There would have to be a command-vehicle on the battle field; maybe have available a "command vehicle" you could purchase if you so desired. These command vehicles could then be assigned command, combat, morale, and stealth bonuses (0, +1, +2) just like infantry platoon commanders, but useable only for vehicles. The cost to purchase a command vehicle would be slightly higher than a "non-command" vehicle to prevent players from choosing all command vehicles, though you could choose no command type vehicles if you so desired.

This could even allow for inferior Soviet AFV communication, by raising the cost to purchase Soviet command vehicles (not always, just during the correct time-frame during the conflict).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really want to see this.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

The reason so many AP rounds are needed to destroy vehicles is because tanks arent stupid. If they are being targetted, and they cant identify who/what is shooting at them, they take evasive action. Its extremely rare that a vehicle has the "TigerI" syndrome of just charging into all forms of fire with the assurance that they are "immune".

Its often a platoon commanders call. He quickly ascertains the sitrep and makes a decision. Discretion is the better part of valour and its reflected in german doctrine. Tanks are valuable and not to be just wasted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lewis, for once I find myself in complete agreement with you.

Michael

[lcm1947]

That's a good idea. It would certainly add to the game and should play good. So you do play the game and not just mod. Great! That helps explain your great looking mods - you yourself use them.

[JMcGuire]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

In CMBO for example, players have complete control over their tanks, though occasionally tanks will back off and fire smoke to obscure themselves from threats.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Occasionally" he says...

[Panther131]

Just a reminder that tank crew morale is already some what modeled in CM. As we know that when a tank or AFV gets hit (penatrated) but does not get knocked out the AFV has a "panic" period of some time before being able to move or shoot at an enemy. Though this is not like the infantry or gun status of panic, routed.

As for the command vehicles suggestion, it seems like a good idea. Though, how much more should a command vehicle cost? And also, since german AFV's had typically better radio equipment then the russians then how will this be modeled in CM? I remember in an interview with a russian tank commander, he said that he could'nt hear anything from the radio at all and that in his experience it was useless. Of course thats just one account of russian radio communication for tanks.

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...tank crew morale is already some what modeled in CM. As we know that when a tank or AFV gets hit (penatrated) but does not get knocked out the AFV has a "panic" period of some time before being able to move or shoot at an enemy. Though this is not like the infantry or gun status of panic, routed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly. Vehicle AI does not take into account crews that have become panicked or routed except as a 1 turn of inaction (less depending on crew exp).

I'd like to see panicked or routed tanks possible and handled more like infantry units, with Command vehicles to rally them and offer "in command radius" bonus. Obviously tanks with radios and larger and/or better trained crews would have a larger command radius. This would be one way to handle the no radios in Soviet tanks without burdening them too much. They would simply have to remain closer to their command tank to receive any "in command" bonuses or be able to rally quicker.

Don't forget, you wouldn't even have to purchase a command tank if you so choose, and this would open up quite a bit of play style divesity depending on whether you take a command tank or two or not.

I.e. a panicked tank would drop smoke and reverse towards the nearest cover.

A routed tank would fast move toward the closest map edge until rallied or simply left alone to recover normally.

There are numerous instances recorded of tanks fleeing the field or looking to get out of immediate harms way, as well as units which function less well once the Commander's tank had been taken out.

Command vehicles should cost a little more than regular vehicles, based on rareity, etc. This would need minor tweaking to balance just right. I'd guessimate someting like 10-25 points more for a Command vehicle. Don't forget the command vehicle you purchase would be assigned random attributes: command, combat, morale, and stealth bonuses (0, +1, +2) just like infantry platoon commanders, but useable only for vehicles.

-Tiger