German Weapons Mix in WW II

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Summary of German production of various weapons systems in WW II - with kind thanks to the "Feldgrau" site and to Keith Heitmann, Gert Bruhn, Thomas Szelag, Jason Long, and Jason Pipes, for all the data for me to mangle and represent -

http://www.feldgrau.com/weap.html

AFVs

Early war (39-42) and late war (43-45) comparison

In the early war, the tanks predominated. The total size of the force over the entire period, counting all replacements (not the standing force, but the cumulative "flow"), was roughly as follows -

Pz IIIs with 50mm gun - 5000

Short 75mm, mostly Pz IV - 1800

37mm, mostly Czech chassis - 1600

20mm, Pz IIs - 1800

Early StuGs - 1500 (half short -41, half long 42)

Armored cars - 3000, all MG or 20mm (2/3rds -41, 1/3 new in 42)

Halftracks - 4000, but only ~1000 before 42

SP-AT - 400 small-gun types, mostly captured 47mm

SPA - practically none, early war

Basically, there are 10,000 tanks, and 3000-7000 light armor (armored cars and halftracks, with the number jumping in 1942). Almost all the fighting power is in the tanks. About half the armored vehicles are armed with MGs and light guns only (AC, HT, light tanks), 1/6th with 75mm howitzer for HE, and roughly 1/3rd ~50mm "duel purpose". The whole force is "armored recce" in character, heavy on firepower against infantry, guns, and thin-skinned vehicles, by later standards.

The late war force is quite different. The turretless assault gun style vehicle becomes numerically larger than the tank force. It appears in many varities, but the StuG 75mm predominates in the overall force, though not as heavily as the Pz III 50mm had in the early war. Roughly, the force has three components - tanks and heavy armor, assault guns and SPA varieties, and halftracks plus armored cars. Numerically, there are around 16,000 vehicles in the first category, and around 20,000 vehicles in *each* of the last two. The overall late-war force is thus around three times as many vehicles as the early war, still 2/3rds "real armor" and 1/3rd light armor.

The tank and heavy armor component has the following rough numerical breakdown -

7400 Panzer IV (75mm long)

6000 Panther

1350 Tiger I

~1000 Heavier AFVs (mostly Tiger II and Jadgpanther)

A rough approximation of the *tank* force, then, is ~1/2 Pz IV, ~3/8ths Panther, ~1/6th "heavies", mostly Tiger Is. Numerically, almost all the heaviest types are in late 44 and early 45; they had ~40% readiness rates which are 1/2 to 2/3rds the rates for the other types; and few full units equipped with them saw extensive action. Tiger Is by contrast saw extensive action, and Panthers are about as common as Pz. IVs in the second half of the war.

The assault gun portion is varied, but numerically the StuG 75mm heavily dominates (III and a smaller number of IVs later in the war).

10000 StuG 75mm long

2600 Hetzer

1900 Jadgpanzer IV, several versions

2500 Marder

500 Nashorn

1600 StuH 105mm

500 SiG 150mm SP Infantry guns

These may be "grouped" into standard StuG, improved or "armored" common TDs (Jadg IV and Hezters), "thin-skinned" SP-AT (Marder and Nashorn), and SP-Howitzers (StuH and SiG). The portions are then about ~1/2 StuG, ~1/4 armored TDs, ~1/6 "thin" SP-AT, ~1/10 howitzer.

In addition, in the late war period there is SPA proper, though not that many pieces. Unlike the previous types, these were all meant for, and mostly used, in the indirect fire role.

800 Wespe 105mm (and equivalent types)

800 Hummel 150mm (")

300 Maultier SP 150mm Rockets

Another type that may be mentioned here is SP-AA.

500 AA tanks, 37mm or 20mm

800 AA trucks, 37mm or multiple mounts on heavy trucks or Skdfz.

600 20mm AA single mounts on light trucks.

In the third category of light armor, an additional 1500 armored cars were produced in the late war period. Of these, only a few hundred had guns above 20mm. Nearly 18,000 halftracks were also produced, some used in ad hoc gun-carrying varities but most just MG armed. These so outnumber the armored cars, unlike the early-war situation, that they rapidly take over most of the light armor recon roles, as well as their troop-carrying function. Remember, the total vehicles increase by a factor of three from early war to late, while only half as many armored cars were built in the late war period, as were available in the early war period. Half tracks built to date go from ~1000 in 1941, to more than 20,000 by the end of 1944.

Otherwise put, Pumas and 75mm armed AC are ~1.5% of the light armor in the later war period, 20mm armed AC are another ~6%, and 92.5% of the light armor is halftracks.

If we ignore the SPA, SP-AA, and light armor for a second, we can ask about the general composition of the late war armored force, whether TD style or tank style. If we group the vehicles by rough degree of protection, we might categorize them in this way -

Heavies - ~2350 (Tiger I and heavier types)

"Sloped" armor - 10400 (Panther, Jadgpanzer IV, Hetzer)

Standard armor - 19000 (StuG, Panzer IV, StuH 105mm)

Thin skinned - 3000 (Marder, Nashorn)

That totals 34,750 AFVs. 7% are thickly armored, 8% thin skinned. 30% are "sloped", and 55% are standard armor. If you like, the 5% StuH (105mm) can be seperated from the last group, leaving 1/2 gun-armed and standard armor (StuG and Panzer IV). If anyone thinks the Hetzers belong with the "standard" set, because of their very thin side armor, that would make 70% of the force standard or thin, 23% "well protected" (Panther and Jadgpanzer), and 7% "thick". The last category is 4% Tiger I and 3% super-heavies, since some may place the Tiger I in a middling category as "boxy" thick armor.

To help compare how rare or common various types are, I also provide some figures on standard towed gun types. First I cover the indirect fire weapons, along with the pure HE infantry support types, direct or indirect.

75mm IG - 13000 (includes some mtn. guns, RRs, etc)

81mm mortar - 80000

105mm howitzer - 21000 (includes some mtn. guns and RRs, <1000)

120mm mortar - 7400

150mm howitzer - 6800

150mm SiG - 4200

150mm rockets - 6000

170mm and up, guns - ~1200 combined

210mm and up, rockets - ~2200 combined

These indirect fire weapons might be grouped as follows. The 75mm and 81mm are "light" artillery, 93,000 of them. The 105mm howitzers are the standard medium artillery piece, with the 120mm mortars supplimenting them, together making 28,400 medium pieces or about 1 for every 3-3/12 light ones, with 1/4 of them being mortars. Then there are 20,400 heavier artillery systems, about half of them 150mm rockets or short-ranged 150mm SiG (roughly 1 per 9 light pieces). At the top, ~10400 true "heavy" systems, of which the 150mm howitzer is by far the most common.

Notice too that there are nearly 45,000 towed indirect fire systems (even discounting the SiGs) above the "light" class, while there are only ~1,900 SP ones in the whole war. Otherwise put, Wespes and Hummels are as rare as Tiger tanks, while towed heavy artillery is as common as StuGs. It is also worth noting that more than 60% of the artillery systems are mortars, with 81mm mortars, alone, accounting for more than half the total.

PAK and FLAK

Here I differentiate again between the early war and late war periods. The change over occurs in 1942, when output of 50mm PAK peaks and that of 75mm PAK begins, at a high rate. I include the 75mm production in the late war force, but production and changeover started during 1942.

Also, for FLAK the Luftwaffe forces are included for the heavy 88mm guns, but not the lighter ones - many of which were used on aircraft. Understand that many 37mm FLAK, multiple 20mm FLAK mounts, heavier guns in addition to these, were being used in rear areas. And many of the 88mm FLAK listed below were also in those rear areas (only 300 were actually under army jurisdiction before 1943).

Also, one should know that *army* deployment of FLAK weapons took off in 1942. Before then the Luftwaffe's successes made FLAK a tactical luxury rather than a necessity. These are production figures, so the stuff actually available in the late war, is the production then plus the early war stuff, minus whatever was lost in the meantime.

The early war force (1939-1942)

37mm PAK - ~6000

47mm PAK - ~1000 (includes various similar captured types)

50mm PAK - ~10000 (production extends through mid 43)

20mm FLAK - ~5000

88mm FLAK - ~6250

The late war force (1943-1945)

75mm PAK - ~33000 (or more - does not include all captured Russian 76.2mm)

88mm PAK - 3500 (purpose built PAK)

20mm FLAK - 14000

20mm/4 FLAK - ~2000 (quad-mounts, in addition to the above singles)

37mm FLAK - ~2700 (includes a few late-war 30mm variants)

88mm FLAK - ~8000

Roughly speaking, then, in the early war there were as many PAK as there were armored vehicles, with lighter ones as numerous as light armor and heavier 50mm versions as numerous as actual tanks. *Deployed* FLAK was less common, with 20mm guns available in a ratio of about 1 per 3 armor vehicles, and heavy FLAK scarce at the front but about as common as the light ones in rear areas.

In the late war period, PAK and FLAK become much more numerous, but similar ratios are maintained. Dedicated PAK outnumber gun-armed AFVs, but the numbers are similar (~35000 to ~36500). Light FLAK is as common as late-war halftracks, and the towed versions are 10 times as common as the vehicle mounted versions. How many of the available 88s were being used for air defense of Germany as opposed to at the front, I do not know - most, certainly. But the total number of 88s available over the whole war, PAK and FLAK, is about as large as the number of StuGs and Panzer IVs combined (~18000). As such it dwarfs the number of heavy tanks. Even with most of the 88s defending Germany, the Allies were far more likely to encounter an 88 battery than a platoon of heavy tanks.

Over the whole course of the war, combined PAK and FLAK is as common as 81mm mortars, and twice as common as gun-armed AFVs or medium and heavy artillery pieces. One does not always think of the 75mm PAK as being as common as medium field artillery, but it was - and light FLAK was as common as infantry guns. Collectively, PAK and FLAK, infantry howitzers, and 81mm mortars, formed a huge body of "heavy weapons", around 175,000 guns of all the various types. That is around 4 for every AFV in the force, roughly 2 mortar or light howitzer, 1 PAK and 1 FLAK per AFV. Plus 1 medium or heavy artillery piece for indirect fire.

In CM terms, that means a typical late-war average "mix" might be 4 AFVs (most likely StuG or Pz IV), 1 105mm or 150mm FO, 1 81mm mortar FO, and perhaps 4x20mm AA, 2x75mm Inf, 4x75mm PAK, and 2x88mm FLAK guns. That is a lot heavier on the towed guns than most QB players take, obviously. Partly that reflects 2-3 infantry fights with PAK and FLAK present, without any armor, for every fight with both armor and guns present. But all 12 of those towed guns plus the 81mm mortar FO, cost about the same as 4 Panzer IVs and the 1 heavy artillery FO. If the tanks are Panthers you can move the FO to the other column, too - 4 Panthers cost as much as the rest of the armament mentioned above, combined.

This is all information meant to help guide people who are interested, in realistic force selection or rariety factor decisions. I also find that realistic force mixes often work pretty well tactically, for the cost that is. Because they did things for reasons, and those were often sound. I hope at least some of this is interesting.

[Berlichtingen]

Good numbers... bad theory.

Given CM's scale, it would be unrealistic to mix tank types unless you are building a large tank battle. German platoons were almost always made up of the same general type of tank.... meaning, that you could mix PzIV Hs & Js but not take a Panther. It would be realistic to take say 3 Tiger 1s with a PzIV (they were used as a kind of recon tank), but not 3 PzIVs and a Tiger 1. The same is true on the Allied side. It is perfectly realistic to take all Churchills... so long as they are mostly 75 armed.

Organization is should be the basis of historical unit selection... not production.

[Forever Babra]

Were Pz IIINs still being grouped with Tigers in NWE in 44? I know this was done early but I don't know if or when the practice stopped.

[Tiger]

German platoons were almost always made up of the same general type of tank.... meaning, that you could mix PzIV Hs & Js but not take a Panther. It would be realistic to take say 3 Tiger 1s with a PzIV (they were used as a kind of recon tank), but not 3 PzIVs and a Tiger 1.

While quite true, different AFVs were often found working together or near each other in any given battle. I'm reading "Steel Inferno, 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy" by M. Reynolds, and so far there are many battles where Mark IVs, Panthers and Tigers are in there. Not in the same platoon of course but in the same battle. I would say it would be realistic to pick the 3 mark IVs and 1 Tiger tank; one does not have to assume they are in the same tank platoon/company.

-Tiger

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

What theory?

Someone evidently read in to my discussion, that people are supposed to use mixes of 1 Tiger 1, 4 Panthers, 5 Pz. IVs, etc. I never said anything of the kind. In my only example of actual forces, I did present a tank platoon (of uniform type and four vehivles) together with the number of supporting guns that the overall weapon mix provided.

I explicitly mentioned that ratio probably reflected 2-3 fights with no armor present, to one with armor present, meaning a correspondingly smaller ratio of guns to tanks. I contrasted a force of 4 Panthers, or with 4 Panzer IVs and one module of heavy artillery, with 12 towed guns plus 81mm mortars, with or without another module of heavy artillery. Where in any of that did someone find cause to pretend I suggested mixing tank types at the level of individual vehicles?

The conclusion from the numbers is not to take the heavy tank types at all, nor many of the highly armored TDs, nor lots of SPA or FLAK panzers, nor Pumas. To instead use Panthers, or Panzer IVs, or StuGs, along with halftracks - and-or lots and lots of supporting heavy weapons.

It should go without saying that those two tank types, with halftracks, will be found in Panzer forces, while some StuGs and many more towed guns, would be found in infantry forces. Both with artillery support too, and most of it not SPA. I explicitly said things like "the Allies would be much more likely to encounter a battery of 88s, than a platoon of heavy tanks."

Allow me to put it indelicately. Anyone who fights all of his German force battles with the 3% of the AFV force that I call "heavy armor", is not fighting WW II battles at all. Any German player who never takes any AFV that can be penetrated in front by a short 75, is in the fantasy role-playing genre.

A German player who only takes armor 1/3-1/4 of the time, and only takes Panthers and Jadgpanzers 1/3-1/4 of the times he takes armor, is making realistic use of the advantages those AFV types did provide the Germans in the late war.

And I explained, I thought in a way that was obvious, how the real weapon mix can be powerful in CM terms, despite the absence of the novice's crutch of impenetrable front armor plates. Because *12* useful guns of varied type, along with 2 modules of artillery, can do a heck of a lot of damage on a small CM battlefield, particularly on the defense as the Germans usually are.

If anyone doesn't see this point, fight a QB defense as the Germans with a "infantry" force type and spend as much on such guns in something like the mix mentioned, as you'd spend on tanks in an armored force.

It is easy enough to recognize that a Panther is a more powerful "piece" than a 75mm PAK-40. It is not so trivial to notice that 2 PAK-40s, 2 20mm FLAK, and a 75mm infantry gun can generate rather a lot of combat power for the same price.

"But the Panther moves, and can also bounce a 75mm short from the front". This is true. But one 75mm HE will not take out all *5* guns. A single 75mm AP from a flank, will do that to the cat. And until taken out, the guns have 3x the HE firepower, 2x the AT firepower, several times the MG-like firepower, and in a form that kills light armor to boot.

Obviously, realism data is supplied for those interested in using it. Those who honestly prefer the fantasy role-playing King Tiger war are heartily welcome to play that way - with each other.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

Any German player who never takes any AFV that can be penetrated in front by a short 75, is in the fantasy role-playing genre.

Thank you, Jason. This is a point that I have tried in my own limited way to introduce into the discussion several times over the past months.

Excellent piece of analysis, as I have long since come to expect of you.

Michael

[sturmtiger101]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

Were Pz IIINs still being grouped with Tigers in NWE in 44? I know this was done early but I don't know if or when the practice stopped.

No, Babra, they were not. Only s/501, 502, 503, 504, 505 Heer tank battalions and the three heavy tank companies of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS Panzer Grenadier Divisions ever had Mk III ( L/60 50mm or L/24 75mm ) as part of their organic establishment. By fall of 1943, all surviving Mk IIIs with the Tiger units listed above were turned over to standard ( medium ) tank battalions in Panzer and PzGrndr units. All Tiger battalions that fought in NWE were equipped solely with MkVI ausf E ( Tiger I ) or MkVI ausf B ( Tiger II ). Hope this helps you guy.

Cheers,

E. Tuggle

------------------

" They're acting as if they have already won the war! " B. Woll

" We will prove them wrong. " M. Whitman

[Apache]

I certainly find the info useful. It would be superb if some tables could be generated, by those with sufficient access to enough reference material, of some example force compositions, perhaps with 'alternatives' options included (e.g. substitute 1 platoon Panthers for MkIVs).

While not for everyone, those with a leaning towards historical accuracy could then draw from such tables. It's certainly a theme that seems to crop up enough in the forum.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Well, I can give one sample and then perhaps others later. German panzer troops, in the 1500-2000 point range. I give the core force, and then optional additions to choose among to round out the force, on offense and on defense.

The core force is -

4 Panzer IV H

1 Motorized Pz Gdr company

1 105mm FO

1-3 Schrecks added.

The core force costs around 1200 points as regulars and more like 1400 as veterans (assuming the FO is still regular).

On attack, round it out with some of the following options (costs approximate) -

200 points - 1 Pioneer Platoon, for added infantry "depth", to clear obstacles, flamethrowers for buildings etc.

200 points - Gun-armed halftracks: 2xSPW-251/9 (75mm) + 1-2 SPW-250/9 (20mm). You get 2 of the 20mm as regulars, one as veterans. (Don't take the 250 version of the 75mm - it doesn't have enough ammo).

100-300 points - Carrier halftracks, 2-6 SPW-251/1. 2 to carry the mortars, company HQ, and one HMG (the rest assigned to the platoons). 4 to carry any one platoon (including the weapons if you like). 6 to do both. One platoon can already ride the tanks. Probably overpriced so don't take too many.

100-300 points - Artillery support. Take 1-2 additional 105mm, or 1 additional 105mm and 1 150mm, or 2-4 150mm Rocket FOs for a "prep fire" barrage. Mix and match.

300-400 points - Panthers instead of Panzer IVs (costs 300 as regulars, 400 as vets).

Tweak the final result to the round 100 force level by varying the number of Schrecks you take.

On defense, the artillery upgrade options is the same, but you can substitute 1x81mm for one of the 105mm and take 3 TRPs. The light mortars are more effective against attackers than on dug-in defenders.

100-180 pts - Light guns. 2x75mm Infantry plus 2-4x20mm FLAK. Kills light armor and increases ranged firepower against infantry.

170-200 pts - Heavy PAK/FLAK. 2-3x75mm PAK 40 -or- 2x88mm FLAK.

100-200 pts - Mines (etc). E.g. 1 roadblock + 5 AT mine + 10 AP mine (vehicle-block) -or- 4 AT mine and 14 AP mine/wire (general minefields) -or- 1 daisy-chain AT + 9 AP mine/wire (poor-man's roadblock).

100 pts - "Stay-behind" detail. 1-2 snipers + 1-2 added Schreck teams + 4-6 LMGs. Placed forward and hiding. Cause confusion about where your main lines are, etc.

*save* 200 points - use just 3 StuG III instead of 4 Panzer IV for the armor component.

Again, mix and match the added items to meet your budget. If you want to double one of the items that may work too, if you can afford it. (E.g. take 4x88mm FLAK instead of just 2, but pay for it by using the 3 StuG instead of 4 Pz IV). Left over points can add Schrecks, 20mm FLAK, LMGs, or mines.

Remember also that you can save around 200 points on the "core" force by using regulars, compared to the cost of veterans.

That will give quite realistic German panzer-division forces on attack or defense. Occasionally you may pick the Panthers, but you will give up artillery support or other add-ons when you do. I think you will find the other mixes quite useful, for the same cost.

[Apache]

Excellent stuff. Downloaded, as will the others be.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Next I give similar totals for smaller German infantry forces, in the 1000-point and under range. I use the Volksgrenadiers as the example, since I particularly like their SMG-heavy small arms mix.

The "core" force is slightly different on offensive compared to defense. It consist of the following, as regulars -

1 VG infantry company

1 81mm mortar FO

2 MG42 HMG

2 Schreck

Then on defense, add

2-3 75mm PAK

On offensive, use instead

2-3 StuG

The defense force then costs 600-670 base, the offense force 660-750 base. The "add" options on attack are -

100-200 pts - Quality. Veteran QL infantry to veteran QL everything

100-300 pts - Numbers. 4th infantry platoon, rifle or SMG, up to a full second VG company.

100-300 pts - Artillery support - 1-2x120mm mortar or 105mm artillery support, and/or 2x150mm rocket for a prep-fire

+/-100 points - 2 StuG, or 4 with one of them a 105mm version.

50-100 points - extra HMGs and Schrecks, 2-4 total, choose the type.

On the attack, use the abundant infantry to scout for the StuGs - never lead with the StuGs. Use the StuGs to deal with enemy armor (you also have fausts and schrecks of course) and with infantry in buildings. Use the off-map artillery on infantry in the woods and enemy guns, and close with the defenders after the StuGs and artillery have suppressed them. The rifle infantry and HMGs can provide overwatch while the SMGs do the dirty work.

On defense, the StuGs are not there, but the PAKs provide ranged AT ability. Then additional force options include many of the same ones as on offense above (except the StuGs), plus -

100-300 pts - mortars "tied in" - 1-2 additional 81mm mortar FOs plus 0-2 120mm mortar FO plus ~3 TRPs. This is particularly nasty in the woods, in junction with SMG infantry counterattacks.

50-100 pts - stay behind detail, as described with the Panzer troops. The poor-man's 50-pt. version is 3 regular LMGs plus *either* 1 vet sniper -or- 1 regular schreck.

100-200 pts - mines, as described with the Panzer troops.

75-150 pts - light guns, 1-2x75mm Inf + 2-4x20mm FLAK.

In particular, unless it is a very small battle try at least 1x75mm Inf + 2x20mm FLAK, in addition to the 2-3x75mm PAK in the "core" defensive force. That only costs as much as you save buying PAK instead of StuGs, incidentally.

Light guns provide the ranged firepower against infantry that the VG infantry is short on. Use them in junction with the rifle-armed infantry and the HMGs to create a ranged "fire plan" to cover the places left empty by SMG infantry or minefields.

In addition, having the extra guns means the PAKs can stay hidden and wait for tank targets, without letting light armor run right up to them. The FLAK will handle that. And when the enemy spots a "gun?", the chances he has found one of your PAKs is much lower. He does not have endless artillery ammo, so that is important.

I hope this is interesting.

[Apache]

I certaily find it so. Any variations on Waffen SS theme would be appraciated to, including a medium size armour bias confrontation (for those highly destructive moments ).

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Medium-sized is how many points? - LOL.

The main differences with W-SS would be 5 tanks per platoon instead of 4, their own troop types for the infantry units of course, and a somewhat more expensive-lavish mix of supporting weapons, from their units being closer to TOE more often. Otherwise they are like other Panzer troops.

If you want the Panthers, a 2000 point force might be 5 Panther, 1 SS motorized infantry company, 1 SS motorized pioneer platoon, 2 105mm FO and a schreck. That is as regulars, as vets that force costs around 400 more. Pz IVs cost about 400 less.

Then you've got many of the same add-on options as with the Panzer troops.

One I didn't mention is adding an armored recce platoon to the force (Panzer or SS). A realistic way to do that is to take -

1 armored panzergrenadier platoon (or SS)

2 PSW 234/1 armored cars (20mm)

1 SPW 251/9 halftrack (75mm)

The armored platoon comes with 4 standard halftracks, so you get 7 vehicles in all. It costs 500 points as regulars. There is room to add 1 HMG, a schreck, carry an FO, etc. (2 men teams fit in the 'tracks even with squads in them - the HMG fits in the platoon HQ's 'track).

A lot of "eyes" and light armor, and significant anti-infantry firepower. Not cheap however - 4 Pz IVs cost less. That is largely because halftracks (and light armor generally) are overpriced in CM, in my opinion.

If you don't want any infantry depth to speak of, you could take a tank platoon and stick a single motorized Pz Gdr platoon + schreck on the backs of the tanks (somebody has to scout for them), and take just one artillery FO. The second of those you could afford with a mere 700 pts as panzer regulars with just 1x81mm in support.

That is -

4 Pz IV

1 Motorized Pz Gdr Platoon

1 Schreck

1 81mm FO

700 pts as regulars. For a small meeting engagement where you want to go tank-heavy. For 1000 pts, you could use Panthers.

Either way, practically all the points spent on armor. But you've got some ground guys to scout for the tanks and kill zook teams, and some indirect arty to hit guns or what have you. And in realistic units.

It is not unrealistic to occasionally take armor heavy forces. You just don't have to make them out of rare heavy vehicles mixed and matched in chaotic fashion. Some mixing with support-type AFVs (howitzer StuGs, light tanks, marders, gun-armed halftracks or flak-vehicles) is fine and even realistic, in 1s and 2s. Spend 100-200 points on such items if you want to, after you build the main force. But the main armored force should be one definite type and that a common one, with most of the armor points spent on that type.

Fine questions BTW.

[Guest Pillar]

Just skimming over this, interesting analysis.

If you're up to it, I'd enjoy an Allied one too.

[Apache]

Many thanks. Again, excellent stuff. It's a pity some of this can't be placed on a website as a permaanent ready reference. It would also prevent those, such as yourself, being asked for the same info again and again.

Appologies for the vague definition (medium etc.), still waiting for game and not sure how big 2000 pts is etc.

[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 02-24-2001).]

[Apache]

I have a good idea on the allied front from some of your other postings. A couple of 'mix n match' ideas would be good though, perhaps with/without armour support. I find the inclusion of optional elements useful, it allows users to concoct their own but still be within the bounds of reality.

I'm no great lover of excessive artillery but equally I wouldn't want to give any units a poor shot through not giving them access to what they would have realistically had at their level (e.g. I think as as been pointed out before, not three quarters of a division's firepower - unless you're playing a scenario where they have been sent to take THE objective for the division).

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

OK, U.S. - LOL. I won't go through all the different force sizes. But I will give a 1000 point force "template" for meeting engagements or attacks as the U.S., in "vanilla" form. The force is assumed to be a combined arms team from a U.S. infantry division. Armor forces, airborne, etc, are all somewhat different.

Start with the core - a rifle company and 81mm mortar FO. That is 630 pts as regulars. Then add some of the following to round out the force (pick only one of the first three to stay within budget) -

Tank support, 200-250 pts - 2 Shermans or TDs. Don't take single tanks. Take either 2 TDs of the same model, or two Shermans, only one (or none) 76mm. A pair of TDs is the cheapest way to get decent anti-tank capability, and is realistic enough. The vanilla M-10s were the most common, though.

Artillery support, 115-330 pts - 3 levels here. Level 1 is to trade the 81mm for 105mm, level 2 is to add 105mm instead, and level 3 is 2x105mm, no 81mm. These are realistic levels of support.

Engineer support, 205-250 pts - add one engineer platoon, regular or veteran quality.

Cavalry platoon, 115-145 pts - 1 M-8 plus 2 Jeep MG or M-20. The M-8 can be regular or veteran.

MG Halftracks, 90-185 pts - 2-4 M3A1 halftracks. Transport your slower teams and add MG firepower.

Quality, 120 pts - upgrade rifle company to veterans.

Quantity, 120-150 pts - add a 4th rifle platoon. For the higher price, the 4th platoon (only) can be raised to vets.

Extra teams, 50-150 pts - take 3-8 MMGs and Zooks, regular or veteran. Mix the types for the type of mission you expect. These are realistic add ons, assigned from the battalion weapons company.

Motor pool, 50-150 points - take 2-6 unarmored vehicles, Jeep MG, Jeep, or Truck. Use them to carry your slower teams, to scout, or for support in the case of the Jeep MGs.

Round out the price to your 100 mark with extra zooks or MMGs or Jeeps.

You will be able to afford one expensive form of support and 1-2 of the others. If you skip the most expensive types of support, you can take several of the others. I do recommend added zooks whenever you do not have tank support, though, unless you know from the scenario the enemy can't have armor.

So, e.g., I might pick tank support and take 2 M-10s, then pick quantity with a 4th rifle platoon as veterans, plus one zook. Or 2 Shermans, then add a cavalry platoon = 1 M-8 + 2 M-20. If I expect to be fighting infantry in the woods, I might take artillery support (total = 81mm + 105mm), quantity (+1 rifle platoon), and 2 added MMGs.

For larger forces you can use much the same idea, but you will generally want a full platoon of tanks - 4 TDs or 5 Shermans with 1-2 of the Shermans 76mm variety. A 4th infantry platoon, rifle or engineer, becomes practically a requirement if the battle is large enough (1500-2000 range e.g.). Sometimes you will want a second full company (e.g. you are attacking and the defender force size is in the 1500 range).

And you will want to take the upgraded artillery. It is realistic to have up to 3x105mm (an artillery battalion, which was the basic "shooting" unit size) and 1x81mm in support of an attacking team. This is harder to afford in CM, because the powerful 105mm modules cost so much. They come with enough ammo that 2 of them can stand in for a full artillery battalion reasonably well.

A fine question.