Guest Michael emrys Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 While I haven't been able to gather definitive information yet, the little I have on armored infantry implies that they were organized and armed a little differently than standard infantry. It may be that they had more automatic weapons, for instance, though whether those were the one mounted on their halftracks or not I have yet to determine. Does anyone know anything about their organisation on the company level and/or could you point me toward a reliable source of information for them? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Well some people might start tossing some real technical stuff at you soon so I will get in some theoretical stuff first. I would say it depends on the quality of the Captain on the scene of the fights' choice as to use what he has on hand and what the coming fight calls for. You might have some crazy guy named Kelly Strapping on big chunks of pipe to make your Sherman look like a 90mm cannon, and you might have some mean old school master turned officer making sure his men never used an enemys weapon and had as many rifles and BARs as they were supposed too. You might have another give all his platoon BARs and Thompsons from any where he could scrounge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Try this. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer_n_Pretzels Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 According to the To&E blurb in Command Decision many Armoured infantry battalions unofficially dispensed with their 57mm AT guns and instead armed themselves to the teeth with Bazookas. I think the figure was one bazooka per infantry squad. This makes them almost as nasty as a Glider Battalion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Very interesting about the halftrack M-2. I t would appear that each M-2 was carrying a squad and then some. Does this re-open the great HT capacity debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 *CLIK* The first man to step back into THAT cesspool offshoot gets a slug between the eyes! "Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?" ------------------ Honor, Duty, Courage. Valhalla awaits you, honorable warrior... ------------------------ "If you find yourself alone, riding through green fields with the sun on your face, do not be troubled, for you are in Elysium, and YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 LOL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Pedant Attack! The line is: I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya punk? and not your ham-fisted mangling of the poet's words ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Here comes the technical stuff. I have the official TO&E for the US "Armored Infantry Battalion" (7-25) for 16 JUN 1945, the divisional TO&E (17) for the light armored division for 12 FEB 1944, and Forty's "US Army Handbook." Stir vigorously and here are the results. US armored infantry companies in 1944-5 had 20 halftracks plus three halftrack mortar carriers. 15 'tracks were allocated to the infantry platoons -- 1 for each of 3 rifle squads, 1 for a 60mm mortar team, and 1 for 2 LMG teams. 3 of the 'tracks towed 57mm AT guns. 1 'track hauled the company HQ and 1 was in the maintenance section. The unit also had 3 jeeps and 2 2 1/2 tonners. The TO&Es list the 'tracks as "w/o armament" which I deduce means that the armament is listed separately: 10 "Gun, machine, cal. 30, heavy, flexible" and 10 "Gun, machine, HB, cal. 50, flexible." So, presumably, half of the tracks got .30s and half got .50s. The company also got 18 bazookas, enough to allocate 1 per squad with some left over for the AT guns and the service elements. I have no indication of how they were actually distributed. In '44, the company had no BARs, but by '45 there were 9 in the company -- 1 per squad. For other small arms, the company had 78 carbines, 25 SMGs, 136 M1s and 3 M1 sniper rifles. This is for the '45 TO&E; the '44 company had slightly varying proportions. I don't have a squad organization for armored infantry. Total personnel: 6 officers and 245 enlisted, which includes service troops -- a supply section and a maintenance section. This said, the actual frequently varied from the official. I have also read that the presence of armored support and the lack of infantry replacements caused the 57mm guns to disappear. The 'tracks were generally not well-liked as combat vehicles, and it was not unusual for the troops to ride on tanks (viz the Singling action). I bet that squads tried to pick up BARs to boost their mobile firepower. And, of course, by late '44, a 251 man company was probably pure fantasy -- effective strengths of 50 men were probably more the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Jenkins Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Wait, doesen't the new beta patch reduce the squads transportable to teams? Perhaps there should be an option, depending on where you stand on this issue. I am vexed. I am terribly vexed. ------------------ "Rinky dinky stinky thinky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 BTS has seen the light and restored full squad capacity to the M3A1 and M5A1 half-tracks, the only vehicles which were the subject of the controversy. No need to open that old can of worms ------------------ My P-47 is a pretty good ship And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip I was thinking 'bout my baby and letting her rip Always got me through so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Others have already given some good information, but I can add some stuff. That small arms load out - ~30 SMGs, ~75 carbines, and ~140 M-1s, is basically the men with other jobs having carbines and the sergeants having SMGs, while the riflemen in the infantry squads have M-1s. Officers used SMGs or carbines as they prefered. Each squad had one man as the driver of its track, and he got a carbine. The MG loaders, mortarmen, and anti-tank guys, and commo men also got carbines. The biggest change from a standard infantry company is that the armored infantry did not have a weapons company, like the foot guys, instead parceling out the weapons to the platoons. Instead they had their anti-tank company. Often that traded in its 57mm ATGs for bazookas and was assigned to the line platoons, as the other fellow stated. Each platoon was organized to fit into 5 halftracks, with an HQ squad, 2 normal squads, an MG squad, and a mortar squad. In CM terms that would be platoon HQ, 1/2 rifle squad in the first HT, 2 HTs with rifle squads, then 2 MG teams in the 4th HT, and 2 mortar teams in the 5th. If the bazooka-style AT platoon was used, then a 6th HT with 2xBazooka teams would be added. The mortar teams were only 3-4 men. The MG teams were 5 men, sgt, gunner, loader, and 2 riflemen, with MG, SMG, carbine, and 2 M-1s if that matters. The standard rifle squads would be 2 SMG plus 8-9 rifles (8 if, as usual, one rifleman was left to man an MG on HT). Sometimes there was one scoped rifle per platoon, sometimes not. The nominal organization of the anti-tank platoon was a jeep with the company HQ (2 men and the driver), then 3 57mm ATG teams, divided into a 5 man crew and a 4 man ammo-handling team, plus the driver. But as others have mentioned, sometimes these weapons were not used and these squads were turned into squad sized bazooka teams instead, then probably attached one-each to the regular platoons, several bazookas each. They did have far more automatic weapons than the standard infantry company. Each platoon had its 2 light machineguns in the MG squad to use dismounted, and there were 50 cals and 30 cals on the HTs. But those were in place of BARs. They also had 2 light mortars per platoon instead of one. In CM terms I'd model the company like this - Commander's HT - Company HQ - SMG, carbine, 2 rifles FO - 2 man team 3 armored infantry platoons each command HT HQ - SMG, carbine, 3 rifles rifle team - SMG, 4 rifles squad HT, 2 SMG + 8 rifles MG HT, 2x5-man MG teams Mortar HT, 2x60mm Mortar teams plus AT platoon 1 jeep with HQ team (2 men) plus 3 HT each 57 ATG, crew - Or - 3 HT each 2xBazooka teams (6 all told) In addition to the composition of the armored infantry companies, it is probably a good idea to review the load-out of an armored division to get an idea of the common attached troops or support they'd have. A typical armored division had 3 armor battalions, 3 armored infantry battalions, 3 armored field artillery battalions (M-7 "Priest" SP 105mm usually), a recon battalion with armored cars, and a combat engineer battalion. They also usually had attached 1 AAA battalion, usually 40mm or quad 50 cals mounted on HTs or a mix of both, plus usually an attached TD battalion. The tank battalions had 3 companies of medium tanks and usually one of light too for scouting (medium means Shermans, light means Stuarts). The recon battalion had 3 troops/companies of armored cars - M-20s - 1 troop of M-8s, and usually 1 company of light tanks attached (sometimes taken from one of the armor battalions). The TD battalion had a company of M-8s to scout and 3 of M-10s. Because of the above, it would be very common to see armored infantry with the support of Shermans and a few Stuarts, up to 1 to 1 with the number of HTs, or with some M-8s and M-10 TDs (2 and 4-5 e.g.), or with Stuarts, M-8s, and M-20s (2+2+6 e.g.). SP quad 50 HTs or 40mm HTs would also be reasonable common (in pairs probably), and a platoon of engineers likewise. And they would generally have 105mm arty support on call, readily available. Overall, they pack enourmous firepower but it is definitely ranged firepower. Against infantry with nothing better than MG and Fausts they are formidable indeed, especially in more open country with room to use all of their MGs and fire support. They were not designed or equipped for the role of close assault with SMGs, German storm-battalion style, but instead were meant to cut off enemy infantry, isolate and pin them with ranged fire, and shoot the heck out of them or just allow the rest of the force to bypass them. Anything the copious MG firepower could not wipe out the dedicated 105's and/or supporting tanks/TDs would plaster. On actual close assaults, the other fellow is right that many of the men prefered to ride the backs of the tanks, since the HTs were vunerable in a close assault role. The idea there was to dismount pretty close and then prevent the enemy infantry from getting into faust range of the supporting armor, with a grenade and close firepower barrier. Then the armor behind could do the killing, not a rush by the armored infantry. That was the idea and the doctrine, and some of the basic field mods people used. Other common field mods were to turn the mortars or 57mm ATGs into armed HTs with those weapons instead of seperate teams, and to add an extra pair of dismounted HMGs or MMGs to a platoon on defense, by stripping some of the HTs. I hope this is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net: [snip] I hope this is interesting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Excellent in fact! Thanks to all who have contributed so far. Latecomers still welcome. What has turned up so far suggests that it's not quite possible to duplicate an armored inf. company or battalion in CM, although one can come pretty close. I find myself wishing rather wistfully that it (as well as the Rangers) had been specifically modeled (as well as Commandos for the Brits). But mostly I miss the Armd. Inf. I like doing QBs with battle groups built around them. Oh well, it's still possible to come close enough to explain the difference through "attrition" I suppose. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 Well, if you want a formula for it, you could use this - 2 Jeeps 20 M3 Halftracks 6 MMG (5 man) 6 Bazooka team 6 60mm Mortar (* see below) 8-9 rifle squad 4 platoon HQ 1 company HQ 1 105mm FO * - *or* replace 3 M3s and all the 60mm Mortar teams with 3 Mortar Carrier HTs, saves 51 points (fewer but bigger mortars, mounted). Cost as regulars, 1944 squad types - 1657 points (1606 with Mortar Carrier variant). The 1945 types are only a few points more, and those work better split into half squads because then each gets a squad automatic weapon. Optional attached Engineer Platoon - Add 3 trucks, 3 engineer squads, 1 platoon HQ, 1 Jeep - 220 points extra. A company of armored infantry like that, regulars, winds up costing about the same as a tank company with 15 plain vanilla Shermans, or a TD company with 4 M8 Scout Cars and 12 M10 Tank Destroyers, or a straight-leg foot infantry battalion with 81mm mortar support but no vehicles. If you "attrite" any of those units a little you can get them down to the 1500 point level, or you can pad them up to 2000 points with room for a few supporting forces (some sort of vehicle support for the leg infantry, tanks for the armored infantry, some leg guys for scouting and close defense with the armored companies, whatever). About half the cost of the armored infantry is the vehicles, so if you dismount them for defense and add perhaps 3x50 cal. + 3x30 cal MGs additional to reflect MGs deployed off of the HTs, you can get a cheaper but less mobile force. Might make the MMG teams 3 man in that case too, to reflect the personnel needed to man the extra MGs. Keeping the 105mm arty support, that works for a 1000 point battle. You will have tons of weapons teams in that case, and relatively few line squads, so you may wind up using half squads a lot. But dug in, on the defense, the MG firepower would be pretty awesome in open country for just a company-sized force. An armored combined arms task force would be a mounted armored infantry company with its engineer platoon attached, a company of 15 Shermans, the 105mm support FO with the armored infantry, and a platoon of Stuarts or M-8s for scouting up ahead. That would run 4000 points all told (more if you try to buy upgraded Shermans), a huge force - ~40 armored vehicles and 5 soft-skin ones. In reality, there would be more soft-skin trucks and jeeps in the tail of the unit, too. An armored "combat command" was 3 of those puppies, and an armored division 3 combat commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net: An armored combined arms task force would be a mounted armored infantry company with its engineer platoon attached, a company of 15 Shermans, the 105mm support FO with the armored infantry, and a platoon of Stuarts or M-8s for scouting up ahead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yum! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That would run 4000 points all told (more if you try to buy upgraded Shermans), a huge force - ~40 armored vehicles and 5 soft-skin ones. In reality, there would be more soft-skin trucks and jeeps in the tail of the unit, too. An armored "combat command" was 3 of those puppies, and an armored division 3 combat commands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ahem. That would be rather ponderous to try to control at the CM scale wouldn't it? Anyway, thanks for the info and suggestions. I've saved them and expect to play around with them some. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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