Professional FOs: A question

[SenorBeef]

I've brought up my complaints to madmatt a few times about the representation of TRPs as of 1.12, and I couldn't substantiate my theory because, quite frankly, I don't know actual arty procedures, just a guess.

Anyway, from what I've read, and guessed, the process seems to go like this:

1. FO calls the battery and establishes the position of his target as grid coordinates on a shared map.

2. Artillery FDC calculates the necesary traverse and elevation to hit those coordinates.

3. FO spots the round, calls in an adjustment

4. FDC calculates the change in gun position to achieve the adjustment called in.

5. FFE.

6. Adjust again as necesary.

7. FFE

Its my understanding, and guess, that a TRP is basically doing steps 1-4 ahead of time. So when a TRP establishing fire is called in, the gun elevation and traverse are calculated, and the angles required are written down...

So there would be a mark on their log that looks something like:

TRP 4, 12.14 degrees right, 58.42 degrees elevation

And so, when TRP fire is called, they can immeadiately set the guns to the pre-coordinated positions and immeadiately call an FFE. This seems to make perfect sense to me. But based on this logic, theres no reason that they shouldn't be able to go to step 6. In CM, you cannot adjust off a TRP, but as far as I can see, a TRP arty call is identicle to a regular one, minus the first 4 steps. Any professional FOs, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[ScoutPL]

I'll give an infantryman's perspective on this. Preplanned artillery targets (in the US Army anyway) are called Targets. TRP's are actually control measures used to control direct fire, for example we used IR chem lights to designate right and left limits for machinegunners. The one on the right would be a TRP and the one on the left would be a TRP. But I'm just being finicky. Back to artillery Targets or CM TRP's.

A preregistered target really isnt any different from a preplanned target except of course for the lack of a spotting round. You are correct you can still FFE as soon as the guns get lined up. But calling for fire using a preregistered target as a reference point still requires a spotting round procedure. Not because the gunners cant do the math, but in most cases because the spotter cant. Even on flat terrain it is very difficult to estimate direction and distance properly. Add in rolling terrain and enemy fire and it becomes a task even the most seasoned FO would find challenging. So a spotting round is usually necessary to make sure the spotter's call for fire is correct, rather then making sure the guns are lined up correctly. Make sense?

So those first few rounds that have to fall before adjusting even on a TRP in CM may simply be reflecting this.

[Michael Dorosh]

Would corrections also have to be made for atmospheric conditions, or would these be negligible?

[L.Tankersley]

Senor, search for a recent thread started by Bullethead; he used to do this for a living and had extensive comments on the TRPs in 1.12.

ScoutPL, are you sure about TRPs being control measures vice preplanned targets? My understanding is that when a call for fire message goes out and gets routed to AFATDS, eventually a message to observer comes back with a target reference point and associated alphanumeric identifier. Subsequent messages can then refer to the TRP by identifier. For units without AFATDS, preplanned TRPs are plotted on fire support overlays as C2/general maneuver graphics. Maybe the infantry has co-opted the term for their own use?

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Leland J. Tankersley

[SenorBeef]

You are correct you can still FFE as soon as the guns get lined up. But calling for fire using a preregistered target as a reference point still requires a spotting round procedure. Not because the gunners cant do the math, but in most cases because the spotter cant. Even on flat terrain it is very difficult to estimate direction and distance properly. Add in rolling terrain and enemy fire and it becomes a task even the most seasoned FO would find challenging. So a spotting round is usually necessary to make sure the spotter's call for fire is correct, rather then making sure the guns are lined up correctly. Make sense?

So those first few rounds that have to fall before adjusting even on a TRP in CM may simply be reflecting this.

Ok, that makes sense, in real terms. In CM, however, you can only adjust to within 100 meters - and I don't think that'd really require a spotting round. But.. the important issue here is that in CM, you can't adjust AT ALL. Its not a simple matter of firing another spotting round, but you can't use trps as reference points. If you move off a TRP, its a completely new arty call. Thats what I have an objection with.

[ScoutPL]

Taken from FM 6-20-20 Fire Support at the Battalion Task Force Level and Below

Page 1-27 Para. f.

Target Reference Point

A TRP is an easily recognizable point on the ground (either natural or man-made) used for identifying enemy targets or controlling fires. A TRP is usually designated by a company commander or platoon leaders for company team, platoon, section or individual weapons. It can also designate the center of an area where the commander plans to distribute or converge the fires of all of his weapons rapidly. A TRP is designated by using the standard target symbol and target number issued by the FIST or FSO. Once designated, a TRP also constitutes an indirect fire target.

The keys here being that it is originally designated as a direct fire weapons control measure and it is a spot on the ground (i.e. a chem light) that is readily visible to the eye rather then just a grid coordinate.

Actual artillery targets are referred to as:

1. Target of Opportunity

2. Planned Target

a. Scheduled Target (delivered at a specific time)

b. On-Call Target (usually guns sit on this target until called for or a mission with a higher priority is called)

c. Priority Target (takes prioity over all other calls for fire, usually only one per supported commander)

d. Final Protective Fire (linear sheaf fired until told to stop or the ammo runs out. Fired right in front of friendly positions in defense)

The kicker to all of this is that these are modern designations. A preplanned target in WWII may have very well been called a TRP.

[ScoutPL]

Well look at it this way. You want to shift fires 500 meters from a preplanned target. It takes time to do that. The call for fire has to be developed by the FO. The fires have to be cleared by higher in order to prevent friendly fire incidents. The call for fire has to be processed by the FDC. The new elevation and direction has to be figured and delivered to the guns. The guns have to shift. If the range is greatly increased, charges have to remade. All of this takes time, more then a minute for sure, so if the game puts constraints on arty reaction time for artilleery shifts then thats good. I will agree with you that having to fire those prescious rounds everytime just to shift fires is a pain in the butt. But I 'd rather have that then let my opponent have immediate, accurate fires anywhere on the map just because he has line of sight to the target and a TRP. It just doesnt work that way.

[L.Tankersley]

Originally posted by ScoutPL:

Target Reference Point

A TRP is an easily recognizable point on the ground (either natural or man-made) used for identifying enemy targets or controlling fires. A TRP is usually designated by a company commander or platoon leaders for company team, platoon, section or individual weapons. It can also designate the center of an area where the commander plans to distribute or converge the fires of all of his weapons rapidly. A TRP is designated by using the standard target symbol and target number issued by the FIST or FSO. Once designated, a TRP also constitutes an indirect fire target.

The keys here being that it is originally designated as a direct fire weapons control measure and it is a spot on the ground (i.e. a chem light) that is readily visible to the eye rather then just a grid coordinate.

What I'm thinking of may be solely an artifact of the digitization process, then. I know that if you issue a call for fire from FBCB2, it gets routed to AFATDS and eventually a TRP symbol will show up on your local digital map display irrespective of whether or not there is any readily-identifiable terrain feature at the target point.

Your quote specifically refers to battalion level and below; I wonder if things might be different at higher echelons? It makes some sense for TRPs at battalion or lower echelons to be designated primarily for direct-fire weapons, since that's primarily what is on-hand. Perhaps the term is used by higher echelons in a different or expanded sense, or at least without the primarily direct-fire restriction.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[ScoutPL]

I think maybe the Target symbol is what is throwing you off, perhaps. The cross is what a Target symbol looks like, deceptively, a TRP uses the same symbol, its just a question of what they are used for. A purely artillery target is referred to as a Target. A direct fire reference point is referred to as a TRP. On a graphics overlay they are one and the same, just labeled slightly different (a grunt TRP will often be labeled rather simply as 1, 2 or 3 whereas an artillery target will often have two letters and four numbers for a label).

I think we're just stumbling over nomenclature. Those who dont deal with the operational graphics/terms on a daily basis often call artillery Targets TRP's. I was just pointing out that this is technically incorrect.

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by ScoutPL:

Well look at it this way. You want to shift fires 500 meters from a preplanned target. It takes time to do that. The call for fire has to be developed by the FO. The fires have to be cleared by higher in order to prevent friendly fire incidents. The call for fire has to be processed by the FDC. The new elevation and direction has to be figured and delivered to the guns. The guns have to shift. If the range is greatly increased, charges have to remade. All of this takes time, more then a minute for sure, so if the game puts constraints on arty reaction time for artilleery shifts then thats good. I will agree with you that having to fire those prescious rounds everytime just to shift fires is a pain in the butt. But I 'd rather have that then let my opponent have immediate, accurate fires anywhere on the map just because he has line of sight to the target and a TRP. It just doesnt work that way.

Whatever issues you have are with CM arty shifting in general, not with TRPs specifically. I'm not saying TRPs should get some sort of adjustment bonus, just that they should BE ABLE to be adjusted just like regular arty calls, rather than being completely unadjustable as they are now.

[L.Tankersley]

Originally posted by ScoutPL:

I think we're just stumbling over nomenclature.

Most likely. I've heard several current/former Army types refer to artillery "Targets" as TRPs, and I need to deal with these people (preferably not looking like a fool when I do so). So I'm actually interested in using the correct nomenclature and understanding the subtle distinctions.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[argie]

This is the link to the previous thread on this topic

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/017267.html

Ariel