Dr. Brian Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 This struck me as weird. I was calling down some rocket artillery. I had some rounds left at the end of the turn. Now, knowing that rocket artillery is NOT something you can just correct like normal arty, I tried to "adjust" my fire. I was expecting not being able to. However, CM allowed me to adjust fire during the middle of the barrage. So, what is being "modelled" here. Rocket artillery as I understand it, is some Katushya or Nebelwerfer are lined up, throw up some spotting rounds, and then when the Fire For Effect comes over the hand set, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh. About 200 rounds from a truck or two go flying off in a split second. It's not the same as dropping a round in an mortar tube or loading an artillery peice. Thoughts appreciated. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! [This message has been edited by Dr. Brian (edited 02-20-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike the bike Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 AFAIK there's no particular reason why you cannot adjust rocket artillery. It is essentially the same as any other artillery except for the potential rate of fire. But it doesn't have to fire salvoes all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted February 21, 2001 Author Share Posted February 21, 2001 Originally posted by Mike the bike: But it doesn't have to fire salvoes all the time. AFAIK, it does. My understanding of WWII rocket artillery is pull the ignitor, and whoosh, there they all go in 2.137 seconds. Every round on the delievery platform is gone. It's quite a site. That is why I don't understand this. Do you (or anyone) have different specs on the rocket artillery platforms? Thanks in advance! ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Here's a bit on the German types: http://www.axess.com/users/pete/rocket.html On this site under movie clips is a Kaytsha firing: http://www.panzerlexikon.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Originally posted by Dr. Brian: AFAIK, it does. My understanding of WWII rocket artillery is pull the ignitor, and whoosh, there they all go in 2.137 seconds. Every round on the delievery platform is gone. It's quite a site. That is why I don't understand this. Do you (or anyone) have different specs on the rocket artillery platforms? I may have and I'll try to dig it out in the next few days. What I recall offhand is that the vehicle mounted versions would fire single shots as well. I think some of the towed versions might have also, but less sure of that. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Yeah, there's probably a small mismodelling in there. I assume Charles didn't bother to create different code for rockets, just using the standard arty code for it. I believe that was the right decision for several reasons: 1. The rockets come in real fast, you almost never have the opportunity to adjust. 2. Why should you adjust in the first place? The buggers come down all over the place no matter what you do. 3. The rockets are silly unimportant weapons in the scale of CM. [This message has been edited by Jarmo (edited 02-21-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Originally posted by Dr. Brian: Rocket artillery as I understand it, is some Katushya or Nebelwerfer are lined up, throw up some spotting rounds, and then when the Fire For Effect comes ...Almost right; there are no spotting rounds, always fire full salvoe for effect directly, once the calculations are done. This way the centre of the sheaf is more likely to be off target, but it doesn't matter much since the sheaf is large enough to cover the taget anyway... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Originally posted by Jarmo: 3. The rockets are silly unimportant weapons in the scale of CM.Try to convince my PBEM opponent of that. His half of the battlefield was just struck all over by 100 15cm and 21cm rockets within 25sec. A bad hit on the morale for his side... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted February 21, 2001 Author Share Posted February 21, 2001 Yep ... that's what I kind of thought. It just didn't make sense that you could correct rocket artillery, as modelled incorrectly in CM. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mayer Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 I think "silly and unimportant" refers mainly to the overall sense of the game. Obviously, a bunch of rockets landing on your position is rather significant, and quite un-silly, but generally company commanders don't worry much about the tactical employment of indirect support rockets, except to know where not to go when they come down, I'd suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Originally posted by Olle Petersson: Try to convince my PBEM opponent of that. His half of the battlefield was just struck all over by .... Just you wait what's going to come down on your side... Robert M, yes that's what I meant. Rocket's would normally be used before the CM scale battle, not during it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 Originally posted by Jarmo: Rocket's would normally be used before the CM scale battle, not during it. If you think so. I'd suggest a single dose of 155mm rockets for a company massing to attack. Seems to do the trick pretty well. Even gave the human player shell-shock! I wouldn't point them at anything smaller than a company though. It's kinda fun to watch the random explosions happening all over the battlefield. When the nebelwerfer's are fired - EVERYONE takes cover I personnally don't view the act as "aiming" nebelwerfer's. I think "pointing" is more accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 . [ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted February 22, 2001 Author Share Posted February 22, 2001 Originally posted by Scipio: I don't know if they are modelled correct, but I don't like them anyway. If I order artillery fire, I want to hit the target, not the entire map. I see your point, but it may be the only arty I have as dictated by the scenrio designer (I don't do QBs). That's why I'd like to see them modelled correctly. If not in CM, absolutely in CM2 especially with Soviet abundance in Katyusha. Just some thoughts. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike the bike Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 AFAIK all rockets used in WW2 were capable of being fired singly, or in ripples, or as salvos. If required for teh sort of impromptu task that CM models then they would most definitely use a single shot + correction technique to make sure they were close. However I also agree with the other posters who say that they'd never be used at the sort of scale that CM models - moreover I'd suggest that the scale of artillery used by many CM players (incl me on occasion!) is way off the board for the level of forces involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 Didn't the Neblewuerfer have a remote, and that one turn triggered one round at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted February 22, 2001 Author Share Posted February 22, 2001 Not sure on the Nebelwerfer. I concur too that we use arty way too "unrealistic" in CM. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibenholt Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 Originally posted by Molotov: Didn't the Neblewuerfer have a remote, and that one turn triggered one round at a time? Yeah, I think so too. I believe I've seen some fotage showing a soldier firing Nebelwehuerfers via a such a remote. It's connected to the launcher via a cable, and the oprator simply twists the remotes handle once for each rocket. ------------------ I hope i haven't brained my damage! -Homer Simpson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 One thing generally over looked, and I apologize for not answering the question sooner: The 'Ammo' number is an abstract number isn't it? Not the actual number of rounds. So having an 'Ammo' value of 1 might translate into say 4 shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 Jasper, The abstracted ammo count was corrected a good while back, the number you see availible is exactly the number of rounds you are going to get. Otherwise, I should be getting another 75 300mm rockets in my QB with John Kettler, and he might not like that ------------------ "What do you know about surfing, major, you're from God damn New Jersey" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 I believe they fired via a magneto so they did not need batteries for electricity. Its similar to the detonator used to fire TNT. The nebel truppen took alot of casualties. Sometimes as much as the infantry. They also were used in street fighting. The range to hit a large building could be very short due to the fact its like shooting at the side of a barn. They basically went from ammo dump to ammo dump firing off the ammo at the site and moving either to the next site (with waiting ammo) or high tailing it to the rear. The telltale smoke from the launch of the rockets was a dead giveaway. Discretion was the better part of valour. The rack weapons were probably left behind to be policed up later. Im sure no infantry unit would want to be stationed in the area when the nebelwerfs came to town. I believe the germans went into this big because the air force dropped out of the ground war support role. Therefore the Nebelwerfers were called Stuka on foot. They had the same effect on the atrget an air strike would have. Complete with whistles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny Bunny Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 My question: Are rockets more accurate than regular off-board artillery ?? I notice you get less rockets than shells so which is better. I never used rockets before ! Regards, GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted February 23, 2001 Author Share Posted February 23, 2001 Originally posted by Gunny Bunny: My question: Are rockets more accurate than regular off-board artillery ?? I notice you get less rockets than shells so which is better. I never used rockets before ! Rockets are certainly NOT as accurate as regular artillery. And, I can't find any instance where rocket artillery was "corrected" by a FO. Once it was called down, it was a massive barrage. The reason the number of "ammo" points is low is that there were not that many rounds per volley and mission. It's not that they were more accurate. They had a larger explosive blast radius. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 From a British Army Operational Research Report. WO 291/2317 German use of the multi-barrelled rocket projector. This report is dated 07 Jan 1944. It is stressed that some of the reports summarised here seem to be more or less contradictory. "There is no evidence to suggest that the lethality of this weapon was great. The moral effect on both fried and foe was at first considerable." However, "There is no (sic) fact no evidence that troops did become used to it and there is a wide spread tendency to assume rather too easily that morale effects do disappear with use." Typical organisation of a werfer regiment is given as 2 battalions, each of 3 batteries (the original says "troops") of 6 werfers. It is stressed that organisation was both varied and flexible. A Panzerwerfer battery might be organised as follows: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>1. Battery commander in light observation car, HQ personnel and telephone sub-section. 2. Battery position officer with mortar echelon: 2 sections each of 4 10-barrelled Panzerwerfer 42 on armoured carriers, each with section commander. 3. Ammunition echelon: SdKfz 4 light ammunition vehicles. 4. Battle transport. One OP was provided per battery, or, according to another source, per battalion, but duties were confined to reporting targets and reporting effects. OPs were usually connected to the battalion fire direction centre, but not directly to the batteries, and so would not know which battery was firing. Late in the war, a battery would have a 5cm Pak attached. Because rockets "sag" on launch, ATk fire by werfers should be done with only the top 2 tubes (nos 1 and 6) loaded. ATk fire is not recommended, although it was successfully conducted on occasion in Italy. ATk guns would be sited about 200 yards forward of the battery position. Typically 1 LMG would be sited 500 yds forward to provide warning and a measure of protection, but it would have no communications. Communication to OPs was usually by line, but a radio would be available in case the line is broken. "The German practice of requiring permission to fire from the Bn HQ (or other Fire Direction Centre) before engaging a target does not always seem to have been a very efficient system. One report suggests that it takes about 10 minutes for a fire order to pass from observation posts to detachments." "There were also occasions when the OP officer did communicate fire orders directly to his own troop as with Allied artillery practice, but the evidence suggests this was the exception rather than the rule." Registration would normally be "silent" registration, or by 1, 2 or 3 rounds from a roving werfer, probably offset from the target to maintain surprise. One source says that ammunition for 6 to 7 salvoes was carried on battery transport, while another says only 2, and that more would be needed from battalion to make up the "ideal" of 5 salvoes. The ammunition mix used in Russia is stated as 20% smoke and 80% HE. Rockets must be stored pointing towards the enemy, in case they are ignited by enemy actions and shoot off across the ground. "Red Star" reported that flares or burning haystacks were used to provide a background to baffle Soviet flash ranging. The rockets have a large blast, but small fragmentation effect. Another source says 6 projectors cover an area 400m wide and 180m deep, 18 projectors cover a frontage of 1200m, or 800m for an exceptionally heavy concentration. Yet another source says the minimum area for a salvo is 300 yards square. A German circular dated March 1942 gives safety zones for own troops for 15cm rockets. There is a forbidden zone 500m short and over from the edges of the target area, and 300m from the edges at each side. Concentration of own troops should be avoided for 3000 metres short of the target. "Firing over own troops will generally take place at ranges above 3000m." Another report says that fire should not be aimed at targets within 500 yards, as the danger to own troops is too great. Another source says no fire within 600 metres of own infantry. Reload time is variously reported as 1½, 3½, 5 and 8 minutes. "The large discrepancy between the ranges of the HE and smoke rockets could not be explained." Overall, the report reinforces the point that these weapons can never replace tube artillery, but are complementary to it, and best used for large concentrations of surprise fire on area targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 I just posted a file containing the German article: "Stalin's Organ" and Other Rocket Weapons. I've made a new site on Britwar, and put it there. Points out that the acceleration of a rocket is less than a shell, so the walls can be thinner and explosives used can be different. And that launchers, unlike cannon, can shoot a LOT of projecticles in a very short period of time. ------------------ Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ or http://www.britwar.co.uk/members/FunFacts/ for military documents written during WWII. [This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 02-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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