Louie the Toad Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 There have been many and lengthy discussions attempting to define CM with regard to tactics vs operations and attrition vs maneuver warfare. IMHO when it comes to "looking for the good ground" and engaging the enemy, the more options available to the players the better the gaming experience. One of the easiest ways to do this would be to expand the map size so that units could move while remaining out of sight. This would allow those who favor the indirect approach to use it without being hemmed in by the map edge. Those who favored the direct approach: Charge! ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by Louie the Toad: There have been many and lengthy discussions attempting to define CM with regard to tactics vs operations and attrition vs maneuver warfare. IMHO when it comes to "looking for the good ground" and engaging the enemy, the more options available to the players the better the gaming experience. One of the easiest ways to do this would be to expand the map size so that units could move while remaining out of sight. This would allow those who favor the indirect approach to use it without being hemmed in by the map edge. Those who favored the direct approach: Charge! It totally depends on the density of activity on that sector of the front. Increasing the map size could be great but it would only model battles taking place in relatively sparsely occupied terrain. Perhaps this could be implemented as an option, but I wouldn't want to see it as standard. regards, --Rett [This message has been edited by CMplayer (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Try playing with heavy fog, playing at night, or playing in heavy forests. They all let you move pretty well without being seen. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Or just set the map size to 'large.' ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted February 3, 2001 Author Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by Chupacabra: Or just set the map size to 'large.' Sorry, but this is not a choice in a QB, and if you use the Editor to make the map you have to pick the units for both sides. That would ruin the game for me. I suppose you could get a 3rd party to pick the units. Any volunteers? But why not be able to select map size in a QB? That's the best solution. BTS are you listening? (reading?). ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted February 3, 2001 Author Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by CMplayer: It totally depends on the density of activity on that sector of the front. Increasing the map size could be great but it would only model battles taking place in relatively sparsely occupied terrain. Perhaps this could be implemented as an option, but I wouldn't want to see it as standard. regards, --Rett Thanks Rett, I am only asking for an option in QB. Nearly everything else is an option. Map size is dependent upon purchase points (I supported my hypothesis with experiments) and found that the density of the battle doesnt change all that much: more points = larger map, less points = smaller map. No choices. Glorious Toad ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 What I'd like to see is the option to make the map 'wide front' or 'narrow front'. Also, if you could choose the relative depths of the set up zones it would be excellent. Defending with a battalion, two companies up, one back, I would like a great deal more depth than what the QB map allows. regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted February 3, 2001 Author Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Try playing with heavy fog, playing at night, or playing in heavy forests. They all let you move pretty well without being seen. Thanks Gustav, Wouldn't using fog or night battles change the dimensions of the fighting, making longer range weapons less effective and causing the fighting to be at closer range? Heavy forests would block sight, but also keep motorized and mechanized units from using that terrain and again would be limiting the game. Not being versed in programming, I dont know how difficult it would be to offer Map Size as a choice in QB, just as Weather or Trees. Exceptional Toad ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted February 3, 2001 Author Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by CMplayer: What I'd like to see is the option to make the map 'wide front' or 'narrow front'. Also, if you could choose the relative depths of the set up zones it would be excellent. Defending with a battalion, two companies up, one back, I would like a great deal more depth than what the QB map allows. regards, --Rett Hello Rett, Do you know how to get the attention of BTS regarding our concerns. I am seriously worried that CM 2 is going to be a big disappointment because of the Uber tanks and the map size. I see it leading to stand off shoot outs beginning with turn one. Intelligent Toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by Louie the Toad: Sorry, but this is not a choice in a QB, and if you use the Editor to make the map you have to pick the units for both sides. That would ruin the game for me. I suppose you could get a 3rd party to pick the units. Any volunteers? But why not be able to select map size in a QB? That's the best solution. BTS are you listening? (reading?). Last time I checked, it was an option in a QB to set your map to one of three sizes: Small, Medium or Large. Exactly how big depends on the force sizes used. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Louie the Toad wrote: One of the easiest ways to do this would be to expand the map size so that units could move while remaining out of sight. This would allow those who favor the indirect approach to use it without being hemmed in by the map edge. Those who favored the direct approach: Charge! But who's to say while you are conducting your indirect approach you don't run into something bigger and badder than what you were trying to avoid? You are assuming the force in front of you is the only one that exists. For more information try a search on 'edge hugging', BTS has commented in depth on this issue several times. BTS has also said they are aware of the larger, more open engagements in Russia in some instances. Let's just wait and see how they handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by Louie the Toad: Sorry, but this is not a choice in a QB, and if you use the Editor to make the map you have to pick the units for both sides. That would ruin the game for me. I suppose you could get a 3rd party to pick the units. Any volunteers? Once again, I am volunteering to Dungeon Master maps for people. I'll set up very large maps, maps with rivers, maps with bocage, maps with the flags on the edges, or whatever you want. Email me a description of the map you want, and have you and your opponent email me your unit selections. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted February 3, 2001 Author Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by JoePrivate: But who's to say while you are conducting your indirect approach you don't run into something bigger and badder than what you were trying to avoid? You are assuming the force in front of you is the only one that exists. For more information try a search on 'edge hugging', BTS has commented in depth on this issue several times. BTS has also said they are aware of the larger, more open engagements in Russia in some instances. Let's just wait and see how they handle it. Greetings JoePrivate, Thanks for the tip on edge hugging. I am hoping for maps where the edges would be so far out there that very little edge hugging would come into play but I know it cant be avoided. As far as running into something worse than what I was trying to flank, I would give kudos to the defender and re-evaluate my recon tactics. My purpose for these posts is to get BTS to let us make the maps bigger. I want them to take the large map option so seriously that they incorporate it into all the rest of their games, plus add an upgrade to CMBO. If they are working on it, I would like to hear about it. I would rather be proactive about this than reactive. Generous Toad ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted February 3, 2001 Author Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Once again, I am volunteering to Dungeon Master maps for people. I'll set up very large maps, maps with rivers, maps with bocage, maps with the flags on the edges, or whatever you want. Email me a description of the map you want, and have you and your opponent email me your unit selections. Thank you for your generosity Gustav, Time is the one commodity that once given can never be replaced. I will immediately take this up with my main email opponent. You will be hearing from me soon. I would be willing to help you with something as I am able. Thankful Toad. ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted February 4, 2001 Author Share Posted February 4, 2001 Originally posted by wwb_99: Last time I checked, it was an option in a QB to set your map to one of three sizes: Small, Medium or Large. Exactly how big depends on the force sizes used. WWB Dear WWB Yes the settings are there but don't really do much to solve the problem. Using a force of 500 pts I generated a "small map" 220x700m and a "large map" 460x700m . Just for fun I checked the range of the M 1 rifle. At 500m it showed an effect in the game of 17. So the M 1 can out range both of these maps by moving it about 250m across the length the map. Without moving at all it out ranges both maps in their widths. The units generated by the QB included tanks and armored cars. How are they going to maneuver out of sight of the enemy? I just want to have this option --- to make the map 2000m in both directions for a 500 pt battle. Right now even a 2000 point battle will only generate a 1100x1300m battlefield. The problem is that the density of forces remains about the same as that of a 500pt battle on a smaller battlefield. Thus not allowing for the Indirect Approach! Emphatic Toad ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Here's what you can do to get a larger map, if you don't want to have someone set one up for you. Set up a QB with the map set to large and the points set to 5000. Only purchase 500 points. You should end up with a much larger map than if you'd told the computer you were going to play a 500 point game. If you want to play against the AI, though, you probably don't want the AI to choose its own forces,as the AI would pick 5000 points. So you will need to either pick the computers forces yourself, or use the "handicap" function to reduce the points available to the computer (although this would not work with a 5000 to 500 point ratio). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Originally posted by Louie the Toad: Sorry, but this is not a choice in a QB, Um, yes it is. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted February 4, 2001 Author Share Posted February 4, 2001 Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: Here's what you can do to get a larger map, if you don't want to have someone set one up for you. Set up a QB with the map set to large and the points set to 5000. Only purchase 500 points. You should end up with a much larger map than if you'd told the computer you were going to play a 500 point game. If you want to play against the AI, though, you probably don't want the AI to choose its own forces,as the AI would pick 5000 points. So you will need to either pick the computers forces yourself, or use the "handicap" function to reduce the points available to the computer (although this would not work with a 5000 to 500 point ratio). Thank you Andrew ! I will experiment with this with my email opponent. Hope he doesnt fudge on the points he buys!! This does look promising. Now all that is left is to tweak the AI problem. I havent looked at using the handicap function before. But I imagine I could be in for a big surprise if the reduction in the AI's forces is not comparable. Thankful Toad ------------------ "Too much of a good thing... is wonderful." -- Mae West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Two points about quickbattles. Larger point battles lead to larger maps and for the other person who mention setup depth, try something other then a meeting engagement. A probe, attack, or assault will alter the setup depths (and flag placements). Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USGrant Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 I'll chime in here to add my observation that the QB maps seem too shallow. I don't have any problems with the width, one can assume there are other units out there etc. But the shallow depth of even the large maps creates problems where you cannot manuever or even set up out of LOS. I wonder if BTS could make the QB maps deeper? I would vote for that, if this were a democracy, which it is not! ------------------ USGrant When the game is over, the kings and pawns go in the same box. - Old Italian Saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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