Brer Pinkey Posted March 30, 2001 Share Posted March 30, 2001 I don't dislike the idea of a mid turn pause, and I would use one (a lot). But I think that there would be modeling problems with vehicular movement. IIRC, vehicles are modeled to accelerate up to speed, but decelerate down to a stop in zero time. Thus a mid-turn pause for a heavy tank doing a fast move would necessitate a zero time change from full speed to stopped for every pause command. Does anyone have accurate info on vehicle acceleration/deceleration modeling? ------------------ "What are we going to do tonight Brain?" "The same thing we do every night Pinkey... We're going to take over Europe!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmac@work Posted March 30, 2001 Share Posted March 30, 2001 I'll not argue how long the pause should be, but gee golly willickers I sure would like to have the pause command available anyplace during my move plot and not just in the beginning... Just from a fun base, because I can't even argue whether that kind of control is within the scope of that BTS was trying to achieve or not... I just want it! Bigmac out! ------------------ All CM All the time! Check out the Dogs of War CM Players Community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted March 30, 2001 Share Posted March 30, 2001 Homba wrote: For anyone who says BTS "already considered it"- very lame answer. Patches 1.01-1.12 indicate that BTS is not ready to call the project perfect, and there is ample room for fresh ideas, constructive criticism, and change for the better. So I'll give a very lame answer and quote Steve's rationale that he posted on one thread about pauses: Moon is correct. Pauses only work for the beginning of the move. In other words, if you see 45secs of Pause they will all happen before the unit moves out. As Moon said, this was a design decision to force people to move units will less precision. In very rare circumstances would a unit move into a position for only a few seconds and then move some place out. So we decided to not cater to the rare in exchange for the norm. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted March 30, 2001 Author Share Posted March 30, 2001 The examples I used on how I employed the pause command were from the manual. I will point out that the pause is an insertion to orders regardless of whether it was on the previous turn or at the begininning of the new one. A 15 second period is not working for this. Thank you, everyone for helping me in this. (Dang where did ya go? If I knew ya were there all along I wouldn't bring along a friend!) (repost) [This message has been edited by Radar (edited 03-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted March 30, 2001 Author Share Posted March 30, 2001 The examples I used were from the manual. The argument that 5 sec is not a realistic period of time for orders, doesn't to point out that the command delay is set at the begininng of a new set of orders. And that is (apperently) how flexable the unit is to new orders from higher command. The pause command is an insertion to orders, whether from a previous turn or from a new one. This 15 sec command influences manuever in that (IMHO) unit response is bogus along these lines CONSIDERING THAT A UNIT CAN SPOT AND FIRE IN LESS THAN 15 SEC. [This message has been edited by Radar (edited 03-30-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted March 30, 2001 Share Posted March 30, 2001 Originally posted by Homba: What I do continue to insist on is that a Pause of 'appropriae' length should be available *at any point* during the move. Repeat after me: "Life ain't played in turns." CM replicates life in a game of 1 minute turns, and does a damn good job- so good I sometimes almost forget it's not real-time. [sarcasm/on]CM isn't replicating real life, it's a Game remember?[sarcasm/off] Your insistence is fine for you, but you have offered no compelling reasons why that would be more realistic for CM. So, BTS: please continue to enhance the suspension of our disbelief, and don’t arbitrarily limit our Pauses to the beginning of a turn. Everything in this game is an effort to enhance realism IN SPITE OF the ‘necessity’ of a turn-based format. So why force us into gamey manoooovering (destroying our suspension of disbelief) to achieve a result that could be elegantly and simply achieved (and duplicating the actions of the real-life vehicle commander) with a Pause usable at any point in a turn ? Yes, but the pauses at the beginning of a turn weren't arbitrary, they are there for realism reasons. Do a search to find out why.[some links below] For anyone who says BTS "already considered it"- very lame answer. Patches 1.01-1.12 indicate that BTS is not ready to call the project perfect, and there is ample room for fresh ideas, constructive criticism, and change for the better. The Pause issue spans every future edition of CM, not just CMBO. It is worthy of a second and third look. Homba Lame answer or not, it is the truth, if you took a moment you would discover that. I agree there's always room for fresh ideas, constructive criticism and change for the better, however that isn't the case here. All you have said, err insisted, is that such a change would be better, would be more fun, would be more realistic. If you wish to offer constructive criticism then it would behoove you to learn the history of CM, to understand the design decisions made by BTS and their rationale for those decisions. Care to do that then offer your 'new' ideas? I would be willing to listen. Synchronised actions? Question about pauses Co-ordinating movement Just a spectator? Debarking units Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homba Posted March 31, 2001 Share Posted March 31, 2001 JoePrivate says that neither I (nor, apparently, anyone else on this thread) has made a “compelling statement” as to why a mid-move Pause would be more realistic for CM. He chastises me for failing to understand or appreciate the history of the development of the Pause command and its purpose within the game, citing me to 5 threads that barely mention the Pause command, or only touch very lightly on the issue before us. The one relevant quote in that entire list of threads was already posted in THIS thread by tss, that quote being BTS’s brief, dated (Dec. 1999), and I-don’t-know-how-seriously-considered rationale: “this [pre-move Pause] was a design decision to force people to move units with less precision. In very rare circumstances would a unit move into a position for only a few seconds and then move some place out. So we decided to not cater to the rare in exchange for the norm.” The above rationale comes crashing in on itself when held up to the reality that CM, as we know it, already IS as micro-manageable as each individual wants it to be, practically without limit. I paraphrase the previously posted astute observation of Vanir Ausf B: A Pause usable at any point during a turn would not introduce a level of micro-management not already in the game! All it does is give you the same flexability that real world commanders would have. Can this point be gainsaid in any meaningful way? I don’t think so- try if you like! As I have stated earlier, BTS has given use the ability to ‘take over’ for our various tank and squad commanders. We can plot hyper-detailed move/hunt/etc/etc routes that ONLY an on-the-spot commander would be deciding on. So the argument rings hollow that says, “We want to limit the player’s move flexibility.” What REALLY happened? BTS succeeded in putting us in command of every vehicle, gun and squad in our arsenal- without losing the epic scope, atmosphere and maneuver possibilities of a battalion-or-larger sized engagement- and I love it!!! What DOES the pre-move Pause force us into? I despair in thinking about all the gamey maneuvering it forces us into. Shaking my head sadly, I think how simple it would be to allow a pause at any point in the turn, thus rescuing us from the absurd mental gymnastics of getting what we want through some sort of gamey work-around. Just look at all of the proposed work-arounds that have been offered! It is just sickening to have to rig together some sort of goofy set of commands (none of which are entirely efficient, as demonstrated in above posts) to achieve what could elegantly be achieved by simply allowing a mid-move pause. THAT is a COMPELLING argument for change, in my estimation (and it is what I’ve said all along). JoePrivate, you are saying you prefer a goofy, faulty, unrealistic work-around to a simple, useful, realistic command!? The BTS quote concludes with: “In very rare circumstances would a unit move into a position for only a few seconds and then move some place out. So we decided to not cater to the rare in exchange for the norm.” If BTS says it was “very rare,” I don’t feel a need to argue that point- simply because this “rare vs. norm” idea is a wholly unnecessary choice based on a flawed analysis. How is a mid-move pause going to cater to the “rare” AT THE EXPENSE OF THE NORM!? If people don’t want to use it, then they won’t! If they do, they will. It's that simple- nobody gets hurt. A mid-move pause takes the pause command out of the realm of arbitrariness and provides another realistic tool with which to control our forces- maybe the only tool withheld from us (withheld on a basis that has no effect, as it can be tediously worked-around). Pre-move Pause is an anachronism, apparently dating from a time when it was thought that waypoints would give players too much control! (sarcastic yes, but you get the point). Let’s put this dinosaur to rest, and institute a simple, mid-move pause solution consistent with every other feature that we know and love in CM. Homba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted March 31, 2001 Share Posted March 31, 2001 I agree with Homba's proposition to implement one or more pauses in mid-turn. The reason why is because it will make us more involved in the game instead of giving the AI more control over things we want to be able to do ourselves. Now then, I'm gonna use the extremely broad notion of wanting to full control of tanks as a way to show that more control equals more fun for us, the players. When this game first came out, people wanted total control of the tanks. They didn't trust the AI to get them out of a sticky situation. If you are gonna lose a tank to your opponent, you want it to be your fault, correct? That way, you can take the full blame for the loss of a unit. We'd all like this but it's just not possible, is it? I mean, even if it could be programmed in, there'd be no way to have full control of every tank on the board with a game of this scope. You can't be everywhere at once. So, we accept that the AI takes control after we give it orders and we watch a 1 minute movie to replace real time. The one minute movie is a substitution for real time, but we realize it is a necessity for the game to work. It gives us as much control in that area that we are humanly allowed without it being a full turn-based game or without downscaling the game. So, we accept it. Now, back to my point.... In this proposal of having a mid-turn pause, we are giving ourselves more control which means more fun for the player. After all, why would anybody want the computer to take control of something we could do ourselves. That's one of the reasons why we play the game, to be in control of all these units. Therefore, by BTS giving us more control over our units by letting us issue a mid-turn pause or multiple pauses, we are thereby thrown deeper into the game as our involvement with the game increases. Lemme phrase that another way: More involvement in the game = More immersion in the game Therefore, I'm in agreement with Homba and the others who want to be able to issue one or more pauses in the middle of a turn. It will only make CM a better game. ------------------ Youth is wasted on the young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homba Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 Any playtesters reading this that agree/disagree/might recommend change? Homba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Blackthorne Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 I would like a pause option during the middle of a movement phase so that I can de-bark troops and then go along my merry way. It does seem as this would be a realistic way in which a vehicle would be given an order set to fulfill. ------------------ Blackthorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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