Hill 267-9 (Another Dubno Battle)

[manchildstein (ii)]

edit... i forgot to mention... the descriptions for this scenario over at the scenario depot don't quite match the final 1.0 scenario... the briefing below is from the 'latest.'

in the current version available at the depot there are a couple of couple of anomalies...the little one-line description you see when you 'play game' should be '41-06' and in the scenario editor the date was changed from june '44 to june '41 as it is supposed to be.... neither of these has any impact on the play of the scenario.

so the briefing here is 'the latest' and the scenario at the depot matches it... again it's just the description and designer's notes at the depot which are a bit out of whack...

the whole story is that i submitted the scenario to admketh, thinking it was ready because i had just had a pretty good go of it myself. then after i had submitted that version, i played it again a couple of times and got waxed pretty badly... and this was after having made some minor changes which i had thought were going to make it easier for the human player...

as i was getting whacked for the 2nd time i realized that the scenario could use some more changes to balance it out... thus the final version i sent to Keth, prior to it ever having been actually released on the scenario depot site...

in other words, the scenario there is the correct one, with the one-line description and in-editor date anomalies, but the description and designer's notes don't reflect this....again the briefing below is the right one...

hopefully the bottom line is that, if you like huge scenarios this one will be a 'molten tnt-laden blast' for you... i have just fired up a new game and will post an aar...

Hill 267.9

Play as Axis against Computer Allied

Default Setup for Computer

June 1941

South, Dry Ground, Warm

Soviets 50% Fanatical

Mid Day, Clear, Still

Axis Attack but Soviets not Dug In

51+ Turns

Huge: 3k x 2k Map, about 7000 points per side

In the opening days of the War in the East Panzer Group 1, supported by the 6th and 17th Armies attacked into the Ukraine. In the 1939 Nazi-Soviet partition of Poland the Soviets had taken an Eastern Polish town called Dubno and annexed it to the Ukraine. So in those first few days of fighting in the Summer of 1941, the German 11th Panzer Division and the rest of the 1st Panzer Group fought through Dubno. The Soviet 8th Mechanized Corps was caught behind and South of this German spearhead. In that first week the 8th Corps thus fought in a N-NE direction with the objective of making their way through Dubno and thus cutting off the German 11th and 16th Panzer Divisions.

The 8th Mechanized Corp was composed of 3 Divisions, including several hundred (on paper at least) tanks. The German 11th Panzer was equipped with Pz II, III and Pz IV tanks. Orders of Battle give us a rough estimate of 11th Panzer tank strength at the outset of Barbarossa; 2 Battalions of the 15th Panzer Regiment, each Battalion totalling about 80 tanks.

From what I can gather, early on these Soviet counterattacks mauled one of the 2 Battalions of the 11th Panzer's 15th "Tank"

Regiment.

This particular scenario depicts the elements of the Soviet 8th Mech. Corps as having fought through and reached the SW outskirts of Dubno, and in the process having occupied Hill 267.9 to the W-SW.

At the moment depicted here, the remaining "intact" Battalion of the 11th Panzer's 15th Tank Regiment is counterattacking, supported by the 2nd Battalion of the 11th Panzergrenadier Brigade's 110th Regiment. The infantry units are depleted but do have all of their heavy weapons. They have replenished their ammo and for this city action some ad hoc shuffling has taken place; the best soldiers of the Battalion have been put into Tank Hunter Teams surrounding the Battalion HQ. In the process the 50mm Mortar units have been disbanded and the "leftover" personnel have been turned into riflemen and light machinegunners to fill out the squad formations as best as possible.

Earlier a friendly observation post (OP) was established in some of the factories within the then-friendly (but otherwise deserted) SW sector of the city. At the moment the sector is no longer "friendly" and the Soviets are all over the place," so the FOs of the OP are frantically communicating with their batteries, waiting to lay down barrages to cover the impdending assault by the newly arriving friendly forces.

So battle is joined between the artillery, tanks, and grenadiers of the 11th Panzer Division and the tanks and infantry of the Soviet 8th Mech. Corps.

Most of the rest of the Soviet 8th Mech. Corps has been already been destroyed in a series of battles leading up to this - earlier battles described in at least some quarters as having been part of the "largest tank battle of all time."

So it is up to you, with the remaining "healthy" Tank Battalion of the 11th Panzer Division; up to you to knock the Soviets right out of Dubno before they have a chance to fortify the area and cement their hold. With that in mind this should be a fluid battle; the Soviets having arrived so recently as to not yet be "dug in." So don't worry about enemy minefields, and only a little about sharpshooters or antitank guns; instead clear the area of Soviet tanks and their supporting infantry. If you take back the town but not the hill, some air support should eventually arrive (outside of the scope of this scenario) to finish off those heavies up there.

All HQ tanks are Veteran, and all other tanks are Regular.

Your force consists of:

Observation Post:

Platoon HQ

3 x HMG 34

2 x Sharpshooter

3 x 105mm FO (radio)

Panzer Battalion 1/15/11:

HQ Company:

3 PzBefWg (PZ IIIF command tanks with low ammo loadout to represent radio equipment)

5 Pz II

Reserve Tank Detachment:

1 PZ IVF

2 PZ IIIH

3 PZ II

2 Light Company, each with:

2 HQ PZ IIIF

1 Platoon x 5 PZ II

3 Platoons x 4 PZ III (mixed models)

1 Medium Company:

2 HQ PZ IVC

1 Platoon of 5 x PZ II

2 Platoons of 4 PZ IV (mixed models)

1 Panzergrenadier Battalion 2/110/11 (Panzer Motorized Infantry) at 60% Strength

9 50mm Mortars removed and traded for 10 Tank Hunter Teams

Reinforcements: Expect a self-propelled AA detachment to arrive within the cover of the factory areas under your control. It should arrive in the next few minutes and consists of 2 Quad 20mm and 6 regular 20mm vehicles. Its designation is the 1./608 Self-Propelled AA Company.

Your Panzer Battalion's PZ III Platoons from the Light Companies are all down from 5 "on paper" tanks to 4 here.

In the default setup, the Panzer Battalion HQ Company and Reserve Detachment are both set up to directly support the Panzergrenadiers attacking out of the factory areas under your control.

The 3 Panzer Companies (Medium, Light, Light) are in the clearing in the NE corner of the mapboard.

Finally, there is the Observation Post (OP), already in position overlooking an "open" (good LOS) part of the city.

The setup zone(s) allow you to change this default configuration - scrap the "observation post idea" altogether on the one hand or reinforce the nearby factory area with more units on the other - to suit yourself.

Aerial recon and OP activity have revealed the following further details: the town is crawling with Soviet infantry, but they haven't yet entered the factory areas by the OP; likewise the town is crawling with light and medium Soviet tanks; particularly along the road which runs SW-NE South of the Church. There are Soviet heavy tanks on hill 267.9.

If you attack from the default positions, your units will probably have to face fire from the hill as they move into the town; thus the clear area leading into town from the NE must be crossed quickly so as to avoid prolonged bombardment from the heavies on the hill and reach the cover of the buildings. One idea would be to spend your 3 FOs in a pre-planned barrage against the hilltop at the outset of the scenario.

You can set up all of your tanks in the lanes around the factories you already control at the start; the problem here is one of manuever; how do you get - en masse - from those cramped lanes and out into the relatively open spaces with so many tanks?

Another plan of attack would be to charge the hill from the setup zones over to the far West of the map. Then after taking the hill, attack into the town and the Soviet left flank; kind of an "L" shaped advance. The mapboard is wide open so once you've left the protection of the factory areas or the low ground on the North edge under your control, the shooting should start in earnst. Your OP HMG 34s, Sharpshooters, and FOs should have targets from the start, assuming they stay in their default positions.

There is no Stuka support here so if and when you face the heavies on the hill, you will need to use some combination of your own AFVs, infantry, or 105mm FOs.

One last thing; the idea is to strip the Soviet infantry of their tank support, in which case the remaining infantry will probably fold pretty easily. With this in mind, it may work fairly well to simply 'ignore' the Soviet infantry during the 'destroy all Soviet tanks' part of the battle.

Design Notes:

Thanks to "Berli" and Andreas and the others on the Battlefront.com BBS for helping with the OOB. General OOB information is found at www.freeport-tech.com/wwii

The map was inspired by a small section of a 1:100,000 map which included Dubno (well, I hope it was Dubno - it wasn't in english) and was referenced on the web.

If you want to get a lot of articles about Dubno, search on www.yahoo.com for with the following:

+dubno +1941

Hopefully it will turn up thousands of articles, some (mostly at the top of the list) about the battle itself.

In one such article it is mentioned that the 8th Corps "mauled" a "brigade" of tanks from the 11th Panzer. I figured they must have meant "battalion" given the historical difference in German versus Soviet unit size nomenclature; that and the fact that the 11th Panzer had no "tank brigade" but rather a regiment. In any case that is where the idea for "only one healthy remaining tank battalion in the 11th Panzer" came from.

Another site mentioned "the largest tank battle of all time" which may be possible, given the on-paper strength of the German and Soviet units - hundreds upon hundreds of tanks and supporting AFVs in total from both sides - in the area at the time.

If not the largest tank battle, "Dubno" was a big one nonetheless.

[ December 21, 2002, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ]

[manchildstein (ii)]

aar... spoiler

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the attack was basically out of the default setup, with the tank companies in the depressed field in the ne corner rearranged; the pz 3 and 4 were set in a 'checkerboard' pattern as the main force while the 3 pz 2 platoons - one from each company - were set as a reserve.

the infantry was left mostly in default.

the first 7 turns saw heavy fighting as the 'schwerpunkt' of some 38 pz 3 and 4 tanks moved out into the open ground just before the church and the square factory to the ne of the same. the 105 mm spotters laid down barrages on turn 1; 1 spotter on the trp in the square factory and the other 2 as 'area fire' (keystroke i instead of t) on the church.

casualties were heavy from the get-go as 1 tank was lost even in the initial staging area for that main tank force.

in the already-controlled factory areas the tanks of the battalion hq and reserve detachments basically waited back there, with a lone pz 3h from the reserve detachment playing 'shoot and scoot' at the gap between factories near the op. many soviet tanks were discovered across the field to the south; several t26s and t34s.

2 panzer 2s from the battalion hq hunted out to the west and got an early t26 kill; that tank being near the buildings on the other side of the sw-ne road west of the church.

after 7 turns tank casualties are heavy on both sides. although my main tank force has dwindled, it has insinuated itself north of the church and has taken out 2 t26s across the field.

the kv2s on the hill have accounted for some kills. the 15 pz2s of the secondary main force went to the right and are holed up north of the 'apartment buildings' across that 'main' (sw-ne) road from the church. 9 of 15 are out of action but they have killed some t26s and BTs.

infantry platoons are in the square factory - which itself lost two tiles to rubble during the 105 barrage - ne of the church; that square factory being the link between my own infantry jumpoff positions in the german-controlled factory complex of the at-start zone.

somehow a quad 20 flak vehicle was lost - probably to sharpshooter fire as those positions within my own start zones may not have been properly mopped up in time. the remaining flak vehicles and tanks from the battalion hq and reserve tank detachment are waiting for the proper moment to stream through that gap in the friendly factory complex and out into the field. i'm waiting for more of the soviet tanks covering the field to be taken out.

on turn 8 it's basically a game of cat and mouse between the computer's tanks and my own.

3 pz 3f (37mm) are about to take on a t-34.

all but one t34 by the church are taken out; the remaining one is on the opposite (s) side of the church from my tanks. there is still at least one t34 at the 'intersection' - the spot with the good los running diagonally sw-ne by that 'main' road. so basically the bulk of my armor is pinned down and i'm awaiting the outcome of several tank on tank duels which are occurring through the gaps between certain factories and other buildings; awaiting the outcome in order to see what to do next.

the grenadier battalion's at and infantry guns are having a hard time keeping pace with the advance; attempting to get into firing positions on my end of that 'main road.' one ig was already lost in transit. to an apparent shot from a kv2 on the hill over a kilometer away.

so several platoons are in the square factory and are mopping up a couple of stray soviet squads. some prisoners have been taken and are being marched to the rear.

the pioneer platoon is being brought up and is going to be put into position to assault the church. i usually try to keep pioneers out of the early action and throw them into the fray later in a given battle.

turn 9:

from its starting position the 81mm mortar spotter plots a fire for effect between the woods on the road into the church and the church itself. this is in an attmpt to interdict some of the soviet infantry movement. infantry are pouring out of the church to the north and it looks like the friendly tanks nearby are in danger of being swamped.

infantry continue to mop up in the square factory.

the t34 which was engaged through a 'slot' or 'keyhole' with 3 pz3f tanks was taken out as a pz3g also joined into the fray. it turns out that even against t34s, 3 37mm and a 50mm combined are not bad odds.

it may still be some time before i'm able to arrange my forces to make any further progress. consolidation seems to be the name of the game at this point.

as turn 10 passes the fight is difficult. the soviets have all kinds of angles from all different directions. 2 tanks were lost to infantry around the church; 1 to a molotov and 1 to a t34 as it fled the infantry next to it and ran out into a firing lane. that makes 3 tanks lost in fron of the church. i still have a lot of tanks and aa vehicles but getting them into good position is going to be tough. at the gap overlooking the 'killing field' south of my original factory positions, 3 separate vehicles are going to try to shoot and scoot and kill a lone t34; the only soviet vehicle with a 'bead' on the gap at the moment.

the infantry have mopped up the factory and are organizing for a push on the church. the t34 behind the church is now beginning to attack around the west side, and some other t34s are moving toward my positions from the other side of the killing field.

turn 20:

the t34 behind the church was taken out by a rush of about 4 or 5 tanks between the factory and the church. 2 or 3 of those were lost to fire from the area around the road intersection before reversing back into cover.

most all of the infantry made a push for the church and by now the large flag there is axis, as well as the small flag in the factory across the way to the south. there are a couple of friendly platoons in the rough south of the church, and another platoon in reserve, with still another in the scattered trees north of the church (inside the wall).

the rest of the battalion is fairly well chewed up, with a disorganized group of 7 or 8 squads with between 1 and 3 men apiece in the church area itself. i'm afraid to hit shift-c as i so often do for fear of the kinds of losses it will magnify where i may have foolishly rushed the church a turn or three too early.

speaking of the church, the open ground to the north of it is a tank graveyard. i was showing the situation to my nephew over xmas and he basically said, 'what a waste of tanks.' he wasn't too impressed by the kv2s on the hill, saying they were 'only L/20s' and i forgot to mention at the time the deadliness of the 152mm HE, even in 'near miss' situations.

as it turns out, the kvs were the ones who destroyed all of my guns as i tried to move them into firing positions at the area overlooking the near end of the road.

anyway, the area around the church is a tank wrecking yard. the slot to the left between the factories looking out into the 'killing fields' also has a number of wrecks. in the meantime i have managed to force 8 tanks through on the far left, having wiped out all of the soviet armor in and to the south of the 'killing field.'

the aa vehicles are all dead in various locations. the 15 panzer 2s on the right are down to 2.

i cease fired and got a 65-35 loss. that wasn't too bad. in hindsight i'm wondering if i should have used my 105mm FOs to drop smoke at the beginning, then made a mad rush into the center of the town area. as it was i got picked apart by fire from all directions. my tanks were pinned in very small areas, and to venture out of these areas always meant more losses.

i lost over 50 afvs whilst destroying about 40 soviet tanks.

those t34s are murder. i didn't have any tank gun capable of reliably knocking them out with a single shot. the 37mm guns were next to useless.

i did wonder aloud to my nephew as to whether i am just a poor tactician, and from what he saw of the area around the church, he wondered that same thing himself.

he did ask if i had tried the hill rush with the idea of taking out the kv2s and then wheeling into town from the 'back.' i told that indeed i had tried that once and had lost 15 tanks to 1 kv before having given up.

so perhaps this scenario is just a 'tad' difficult for the likes of me. i did have most all of my MG34s still operational, and inflicted 2:1 in casualties; about 500:250. there were however still about twice as many soviets alive. i had my 10 tank hunter teams and the battalion HQ, but figured these were simply too brittle to send in as regular infantry.

perhaps i could have gotten this one to 40-60 instead of 34-65 but i could see the writing on the wall. 2 of the 8 flanking tanks were the pzbefwg with only 30 ammo; and that ammo being 37mm.

the german infantry battalion is brittle; starting the scenario at 60% means that they can't be frivolously toseed into the fray as i apparently had done.

i'll just have to figure that stukas came in and finished the job, and that divisional was able to salvage the wrecks i had made.

if anyone else has the penchant for micromanagement and happened to try this one, i would be curious to know how it went.

i've got a modified version of this scenario, with less factories and more cover. i found out that my model map was 30 or 40 years too late; that perhaps the area wasn't as built up in 1941 as i had originally thought.

for now though this one is on the back burner as i try and recreate something else for the time being. in the meantime, if anyone is interested in an 'easier' version of this scenario; a version with less factories and more tree cover, let me know. without too much work i could release it as '267-9 version 1.1.' part of me though thinks that, even with the built-up map and the clear approaches, winning or losing, this scenario is one heckuva of an exercise in tnt-laden fun.

[demoss]

the little one-line description you see when you 'play game' should be '41-06' and in the scenario editor the date was changed from june '44 to june '41 as it is supposed to be.... neither of these has any impact on the play of the scenario.

Actually, the date does have an impact. The Russian 45 mm guns are significantly less effective in 1941. I just noticed this myself - finally got around to trying it (haven't been playing much vs. AI in a while) and noticed that my Pz IIs were going down MUCH faster than I expected (no, not to T-34's ). I'll just have to suffer through it for now, I think. It's not like I expect Pz IIs to live very long anyway.

[manchildstein (ii)]

i have posted a version 2 (v2) of this scenario through the scenario depot...

the link-through is to

http://peter_panzer.tripod.com

if memory serves it should be set to 1941 in the scenario...