Rangrs and Commandos

[vogless]

I'm new to these posts, but does anyone know why there are no US Rangers or Brittish Commandos in the game? Are they planned for part 2? I would love to set up some raids. I guess I could use airborne troops, but I don't think they would be as good.

[Michael Dorosh]

Didn't most Commando raids had destruction of certain assets as an objective - stuff you can't simulate in CM.

How would you simulate Campbelltown crashing into the dock gates at St. Nazaire - or the Dieppe force capturing radar equipment?

Most commando raids were predicated on the assumption that it would not be a 'fair fight' - something that CM players usually hope for.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...or the Dieppe force capturing radar equipment?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Been quite some years since I read it, but I believe Green Beach was quite explicit that the troops who accompanied the radar tech who was tasked with that job were "ordinary" Canadian troops. They were also ordered not to permit him to be captured alive by the Germans, rather a chilling condition from his point of view. :eek:

Michael

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vogless:

I'm new to these posts, but does anyone know why there are no US Rangers or Brittish Commandos in the game? Are they planned for part 2? I would love to set up some raids. I guess I could use airborne troops, but I don't think they would be as good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't recall the reasoning why US Rangers aren't included, but as for the British Commandos were probably left out for the very reason as stated by Dorosh and emrys

To clarify, "Part 2" is covering the Eastern Front. Whole new Theater. So no British or American forces in CM2 at all.

[JasonC]

Use airborne units and the crack quality setting. They will work. If they still seem whimpy to you, give them 50% fanaticism; they won't seem whimpy anymore.

Here are some additional ideas for CM commando scenarios (which can work fine), to simulate surprise attacks.

1 - when designing them, start in zone mode and paint the whole map as one zone for the attacker's side

2 - next, place the defenders, either locking them in place (orange - use this especially for guns or non-patroling vehicles), or giving them small set up zones (like less than 100 meters on a side) for areas they are supposedly patroling with sentries, etc. Use several set up zones and locking to seperate the defenders and reduce their coordination options. E.g. one platoon in the green zone, another in the black zone, everything else locked.

3 - then paint a neutral area only 40 meters wide around the defender's set up locations or zones.

The result of the above steps will be that the attacker knows the location of many of the defenders before set up (he sees "islands" in his allowed set up area), but not vice versa (defender sees a "sea" of possible attacker locations). The attacker can set up anywhere, even quite close to known defender locations, while the defender has few set up options and little information.

If you want to force the attackers to hit and run, give the defenders a large reinforcement that arrives late in the battle. Give the defenders regular or green quality - the second is good for rear area and headquarters troops.

Obviously the scenario can be set at night if you like.

Give the attackers fast teams as well as ordinary infantry. Elite sharpshooters, AT teams, occasional lighter MG teams. No vehicles. If you want to simulate demolitions, you can give the attackers TRPs (which you can place and lock if you like, e.g. on an objective building), plus FOs with a limited number of high-caliber "artillery shells" - 4 8 inch shells for example.

It is definitely possible to use CM to simulate commando ops...

[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Been quite some years since I read it, but I believe Green Beach was quite explicit that the troops who accompanied the radar tech who was tasked with that job were "ordinary" Canadian troops. They were also ordered not to permit him to be captured alive by the Germans, rather a chilling condition from his point of view. :eek:

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I own the book, and that is also confirmed by The Shame and the Glory. In effect, the whole raid was a commando-style operation, with regular troops of the 4th and 6th Canadian Brigades making up the bulk of the troops. As it worked out, it was less a commando raid than an opposed landing. The actual Commando units on the wings did achieve some success with their objectives of destroying or discomfiting artillery batteries.

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

It is definitely possible to use CM to simulate commando ops...

[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But not to simulate the kinds of victory conditions a "commando" raid would have. The pyhrric losses at St Nazaire, for example, would in CM terms be a loss - yet the raid was considered a success.

At Dieppe, the commando actions against the artillery batteries at Orange and Yellow beaches caused little actual damage to the defenders - yet the artillery was prevented from firing on the fleet or the other landing beaches. In real terms, a success.

How would you use CM victory conditions (ie exit, flag control or casualty causation) to simulate the objectives of most commando raids - destruction of enemy equipment or capture of enemy personnel?

It would be neat if CM had better night rules - and a Lax-type rule like in ASL, where you could designate rear area troops as being unaware until such time as gunfire starts. I realize you can make all defenders Green, but this penalizes them for the entire game, rather than just until it is apparent that a raid is on.

[Affentitten]

Hi people. This is my first post here, and leaping right into the debate, may I point out that from D-Day onwards, the British commandos were used less and less as a raiding force and more often as conventional infantry. Lovatt and his men landed on Sword beach just like everybody else and marched inland to do the job of conventional infantry.

The glorious coastal raiding days of the early years were over, mainly because there was less and less coast that needed to be raided!

[lcm1947]

This I believe is more or less along the lines of this thread so here goes. I have heard or maybe read about Path Finders in regards to the Normany landing. Were they another branch of the army? Were they better trained etc then the Rangers? Anyone know?

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Affentitten:

Hi people. This is my first post here, and leaping right into the debate, may I point out that from D-Day onwards, the British commandos were used less and less as a raiding force and more often as conventional infantry. Lovatt and his men landed on Sword beach just like everybody else and marched inland to do the job of conventional infantry.

The glorious coastal raiding days of the early years were over, mainly because there was less and less coast that needed to be raided!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are absolutely right; I know the SS brigade was used at Walcheren Island to clear German gun positions overlooking the Scheldt (after the Canadians and 52nd Brit Div failed to open up a bridgehead using the Causeway from South Beveland). Don't know if that counts as "commando ops" or not, though they were definitely used amphibiously and to knock out fixed fortifications.

I think we are discussing (at least I am) more in the way of simulating things before CM's time frame - ie the raids of 1940-1943.

[JasonC]

VCs based on knocking out guns or otherwise smashing whatever is in a given area, is easy. Just give the guns an exit VC (triples their point value for VCs), make the scenario long, and bring on defending trucks as a late reinforcement, after a large fighting one. If you want to simulate immobile equipment, use heavy guns like 88s and set the ammo to zero.

Then if the raiders get close they easily knock out the "guns", preventing their "exit", and racking up huge point totals. While if they don't, the defending reinforcements come on, sweep them out of the objective (if they haven't already withdrawn), and then tow the magic mcguffins off to victory.

There are a lot more things that -can- be done with CM, than -are- done with CM...

[von Lucke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947:

This I believe is more or less along the lines of this thread so here goes. I have heard or maybe read about Path Finders in regards to the Normany landing. Were they another branch of the army? Were they better trained etc then the Rangers? Anyone know?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pathfinders were/are pretty much as the name implies: Paratroopers who go in first and get the lay of the land, set up beacons (radio and visual) for the follow-on air drops --- and then hide somewhere and pray the main drop doesn't get delayed or cancelled!

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947:

I have heard or maybe read about Path Finders in regards to the Normany landing. Were they another branch of the army? Were they better trained etc then the Rangers? Anyone know?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Pathfinders in Normandy were paratroops who were tasked to go in several hours before the main drops, locate the drop zones and place beacons (both radio and strobe light) on them for the attack waves to home on. They dropped from planes whose navigators were the creme of the crop. Due to high winds and other difficulties, most of them were still unable to find their drop zones and/or set up their equipment. As a consequence, the main drops were scattered hither and yon, some times with fatal consequences as the heavily loaded paratroopers, landing in marshes and in the case of at least one planeload in the open sea, were dragged underwater and drowned.

I'm not sure how much special training they received beyond the operation of their beacon equipment. Presumably they would be experienced in finding their way cross-country in the dark, but I would also assume that for this operation all troops would have received considerable training in that skill.

Michael

[Affentitten]

Bad-drops were not the only problem for the Pathfinders. The Rebecca/Eureka beacon equipment was notoriously unreliable. I think only one set was working in the right place at the right time on the Normandy drops, and the incoming planes still missed it.

For the British 1st Airborne, their path-finding was done by the 21st Independent Coy. They were volunteers from the existinf Para battalions.

[lcm1947]

Thanks guys. I thought that they were a different branch or something that no longer existed. And special thanks to Michael emrys for that very good description.