Is a Good WW2 FPS Game Possible?

[Minnesota Joe]

Once again off topic, but I feel that this should be addressed due to the fact that some FPS games are becoming more realistic and more reliant on tactics. Good examples are of course Rainbow Six and SWAT 3.

In my opinion, Medal of Honor was good for a platform game, though generaly dissapointing, so I'm not even going to consider that a platform game could be upto par for this goal.

I'm not saying I want G.I. Quake or some BS like that. I would like a game where wounds and physics are correct and no expence is spaired to promote realism.

There are so many areas that would need to be improved to attain respectable realism, like speed, interactivity, and communication.

So do you guys think it would be possible? And if so, what would be required for an enjoyable, yet realistic experience? Please don't flame me.

------------------

Ah scheist.

[This message has been edited by Minnesota Joe (edited 08-18-2000).]

[Disaster@work]

It's not a bad idea. An FPS WWII game would have to show restraint and I don't know if that is possible given the FPS market in general (bigger guns! More interesting deaths!). I mean, how fun would it be if it was really realistic. Let's say it was a compromise like you were a commando. So you might have the best weapons of the era. Certainly not a battlefield setting where the shot that killed you may not necessarily have been aimed at you by one of the dozens blasting away at you company on Omaha Beach. That wouldn't be fun at all.

Good FPS compromises are Half Life Counterstrike and Rainbow Six.

Counterstrike has the fun of squad level combat but still is more of a 'sport' than a sim. I am a huge Counterstrike fan, by the way. There is a Russian Front conversion of the Half Life engine that looked interesting from the screenshots. However, any Half Life conversion will be limited in its outside space. A better engine for outside spaces is Unreal, but I find its emplementation usually cartoony.

Rainbow Six is pretty close to a sim but again becomes a sport in network play. By sport I mean the whole thing is essentially 'gamey' in the wargame sense. The only realistic part of it is the specific damage modelling but the rest of it relies on extremely gamey tactics.

I tried to play Hidden and Dangerous (like Rainbow Six but set in WWII) but it was soooo buggy that I gave up. I understand that it hsa a following, however.

Avoid Medal of Honour at all costs. Even though it was made by the game division of Dreamworks, it bares no resemblance to Saving Private Ryan, no matter what their marketing department said.

Wolfenstein is coming out again using the Quake engine but you can bet that it goes as far as the original Wolfenstein 3D (not the Muse software version!) in 'realism'. It will be rightly designed for fun. I predict more gatling gun armed Hitlers.

What would be more interesting is an FPS version of the ORIGINAL Muse game where stealth, taking prisoners, and disguise were part of the game. Adventure elements!

[This message has been edited by Disaster@work (edited 08-18-2000).]

[Guest Pillar]

I think a WW2 mod for Rogue Spear with WW2 levels (Bunkers comes to mind, but bigger) would be lovely.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

I think the question is too broad. What do you mean by "good"? I have played a half-life mod called "War in Europe", that was really fun, and it that sense it was good, but the way people run around in a FPS game is *nothing* like how one acts on a real battlefield. There is no such thing as self-preservation in a FPS, and tactically I dont think a realistic WW2 FPS will happen.

If you have half-life, you can get the mod from fileplanet.com, its multiplayer only, so you have to find opponents on gamespy.

[Guest Pillar]

Just a note to HL mod seekers: The most recent patch for Half Life has made all but about 5 mods not work.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

There is a great WW2 mod for Rogue Spear/Urban ops. Its put out by some clever Finns. The guns are pretty nice. They orginaly used the wep sounds from Close Combat, I was like hey these sound familiar. They have some WW2 uniforms. It seems like as they keep tweaking, they create more bugs. Unfortantly you can't force one team to only use American weps and the other team to use german weps. But it is possibly.

[Steve Clark]

I only played two FPS in my 10+ years of continuous gaming: Wolf 3D and Outlaws. I detest games like Doom, Quake, etc. with their demons, monsters, robots and aliens sh*t. I loved Wolf 3D (will be interested in the new version) for its straight-forward, clean fun and I absolutely love Outlaws because unlike most FPS, you have to think and conserve ammo instead of going in with laser-guns blazing. I tried R6 but counter-terrorism doesn't do it for me (not historical enough). Just some quick opinions about FPS.

[Disaster@work]

I played WIE a few months back. Although it was fun to play the beach map, being the allies was an exercise in frustration. EVERYONE wanted to be the Germans pouring fire down into the landing craft. I bet it was fun for them but not for the allied player. Even with the 'gamey' unrealistic play it offered up the question of how 'fun' a first person wargame might be. For example, would it be fun if you went over the top in the Somme? In wargames it's fun because your game isn't over when someone dies. It's over when a lot of people die

[This message has been edited by Disaster@work (edited 08-18-2000).]

[Minnesota Joe]

Well, by good I mean enjoyable to the same crowds that enjoy CM and those that like realistic FPS games.

Eye candy is not important to me. I dont need to run a game at high resolution to enjoy it. I have this game called SEAL Team, for example. It was made almost ten years ago. It has **** graphics by today's standards, but the frame rates are good and the game is very enjoyable.

I'd like to see realistic weapons effects for one thing (The occasional Tommy gun jamming would be great). Ever hear of Red Faction? Its a FPS coming out that supposedly has an emvironment that is almost totally destructable.

Another cool idea is to have a command interface just like CM. You'd give orders via radio to squads of other players and they'd follow your orders (hopefully).

------------------

Ah scheist.

[Chupacabra]

There is a MMO game called WWII Online in the works. It promises to include FPS elements. I'm personally skeptical because the design sounds EXTREMELY ambitious, and in my experience, games that attempt to do too many things usually wind up doing them all poorly. Try www.WWIIOnline.com

------------------

Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 08-18-2000).]

[David Aitken]

You're not going to get 'realistic' and 'fun' together in a WWII FPS - end of story. There isn't much inherently fun about an infantryman's work. Sure, you could substitute spaceships with trenches and laser guns with rifles, but the actual experience wouldn't be real.

This is what I've always felt about FPS's - they may look real, but the reality of sneaking around with a gun is nothing like any game can hope to emulate for a long time to come. Even if someone eventually creates "Virtual Reality WWII Infantryman", which will involve a full-body suit which (among other things) simulates cold, dampness and fatigue, it still won't be much of a game.

David

------------------

There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

[Disaster@work]

I remember Seal Team and I exchanged mail with one of the makers wayy back. That was a really nice game, amazingly claustrophobic in the jungle even with graphics of that era. Other squad based games such as Spec Ops, SWAT owe a lot to it with its keyboard commands for teammates, and perspective, etc. The missions were very well designed as well where the smallest mistake could alter your ability to complete them. A WWII style game like Seal Team has potential.

[Guest Pillar]

Whats the url for the Rogue Spear ww2 mod?

[Minnesota Joe]

SEAL Team was so good in fact, that it put many a modern game to shame. The game was great because of:

*An excellent waypoint system with an easy map interface.

*Dozens of Vietnam era (you could only play in Vietnam) weapons. The loadout interface was revolutionary, affecting weight and thus speed of your SEALs.

*Enemy AI that wasn't the suicidal kind found in many games of today. A few NVA would lay down suppresing fire while others ran forward.

*The possibility to call in support (Cobras, hueys, broncos and two kinds of assault boats).

*Crawl, sneak, and run commands.

*When the **** hit the fan, there was this ominous little Midi tune that played as your troops bought the farm.

I guarentee that if you can get this game, you'll enjoy it more than the newest mass market FPS. Disaster@Work has made a good point. If there was a WW2 game like this, it would be bought by me.

------------------

Ah scheist.

[Guest Pillar]

Whats the url for the Rogue Spear ww2 mod?

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

the URL is www.nlm.cjb.net you should be quite pleased but like I said It seems to get buggier as the add more stuff to it, and I almost forgot. Team Fortress2 is going to be a semi-historical FPS WW2 game. They will be shipping the game with headsets!!! Valve I think is the publisher and It does not even have a release date because they won't release it until it is a revolutionary piece of software.

[Disaster@work]

There is a good tribute article to Seal Team here at SimHQ:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/features/perfect_fps/perfect_fps.shtml

[Hamstersss]

There's a great mod for Half-Life called The Russian Front that models German and Russian city-fighting (mostly) during WWII. With a 32 player limit and no vehicles, though, we're going to have to wait for TF2 to come out and someone to create a WWII mod for it.

http://www.planethalflife.com/borderline/mods/rfront/

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Personaly I love the sound of the MG42 in the RS/UO WW2 mod. They MG42 IMHO sounds much to weak in CM. In the WW2 mod it sounds like God is tearing a huge piece of canvas to sheds. It is truely scary.

[Disaster@work]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-:

the URL is www.nlm.cjb.net Team Fortress2 is going to be a semi-historical FPS WW2 game. They will be shipping the game with headsets!!! Valve I think is the publisher and It does not even have a release date because they won't release it until it is a revolutionary piece of software.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everything I've read about TF2 is that it has nothing to do with WWII. However, it does promise to be a step up in the squad based FPS genre. In the original TF you can play one of many roles (unlike Counterstrike where your role is generally defined by the type of weapon you specialize in). In TF2 they add one more important role: Commander. As the Commander you actually have a different perspective than the squad who relies on you. You have an overhead view (or map view) where you can see the strategic perspective of the map and can then give warnings or directions to your teammates.

This is potentially quite a funny concept. I mean, it's not like 14 year old Jimmy from Talahasee gives a **** what I (as commander) have to offer in terms of strategic advice. And imagine a commander who doesn't have a great command of the English language attempting to give you commands.

In CS and TF some people have mastered typing quickly and communicating somewhat adequately tactical information while they are fighting. With headsets, this opens up a whole new realm of communications. However, I am sure that the TF2 crew is heavily in testing over what works in voice com and what doesn't.

Real life military personnel have to be trained in how to properly use the airwaves, not just blabbing out screaming nonsense. Of course, everyone who has ever engaged in a multiplayer game has the experience of mouthing off with juveniles who haven't learned to limit their trash talk. Imagine that on the air waves.

I did try headset comm in Rainbow 6 and in Sid Meier's Gettysburg. In Rainbow 6 I found many people just couldn't convey adequate information about the situation with any usefulness. Problems were: describing where they were, identifying who was speaking, and conveying what they wanted. Finally, not many people had microphones to begin with so one annoying person might be shouting through everyone else's speakers.

In SMG, the level of adult conversation was a lot higher but it felt somehow inappropriate to be using a microphone to talk in a civil war game. Sure, one general might ride up to the next to share info. But engaging in radio communications during the battle? Also, because of the nature of the timing of the game there were often looong spaces between any useful need to communicate. But this would be different for a WWII or modern game.

------------------

----

To download my scenarios: go to

http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm

[David Aitken]

Mr. Johnson-- wrote:

> They MG42 IMHO sounds much to weak in CM. In the WW2 mod it sounds like God is tearing a huge piece of canvas to sheds. It is truely scary.

We're talking about realism versus effect. Enough said.

David

------------------

There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

David

I put "In my humble opinion" in my response about the MG42 so no one would say anything back to me about how wrong, or this would not be codedable, or fill in blank with whatever. But I guess I failed. In fact i'm going to go see if I can turn the sound effect up and speed it up myself right now. Oh wait I don't know how to modify WAV. files. damn!

[This message has been edited by Mr. Johnson-<THC>- (edited 08-18-2000).]

[David Aitken]

Mr. Johnson-- wrote:

> so no one would say anything back to me about how wrong, or this would not be codedable, or fill in blank with whatever.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. =)

David

------------------

There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

hehehe,

[deanco]

Few things I've always wondered about FPS and realism. Why can you run backwards and sideways as quickly as you can forwards? Why does the gunsight not jiggle as you run? Why are there (usually) no crawl or sneak commands? I think for a WWII realistic shooter to be made, a lot of FPS concepts are gonna have to be rethought from the ground up.

DeanCo--