Volksgrenadiers and FP

[Schugger]

I'm currently playing one of WBW's great scenarios when I stumbled over something:

The Volksgrenadier Heavy SMG Squad's LMG 42 (two of them) have a FP value of 40 at a range of 40 meters and a FP of 78 at 100 meters. By comparison, Motorized Squads which have also two LMGs 42 do have a FP of 100 at 40 meters and 90 at 100 meters.

So I scratched my head and did the Search thing and came up with:

http://battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001741.html

Fine, so I stopped searching further and made a test with one VG hvy SMG squad against an US Rifle squad at exactly 40 meters to check the firepower values.

The result was exactly 256 FP ( 212 for the six MP 40s and 40 for the two LMGs) and it increases to 281 when I made the target order ( I think because the HQ has a +1 combat bonus).

So I want to ask if this is intentional or is this a bug?

In the latter case, I think it is a small one as I think the result is basically the same if you hit someone with a FP of 256 or 316 ( pulp).

[M Hofbauer]

Schugger, the way I understood it is that the 40m-FP value is an abstracted value differing from all the other distance-FP values in so far as it is a Close Combat value which not only includes such factors as ROF, accuracy, ammo energy etc., but also things like how handy or unwieldy/cumbersome the weapon is in close melees.

Therefore, it makes sense that a MG, even a LMG, has a smaller value at melee range than it has at greater ranges.

BTS explained this 40m-"FP-anomaly" in a thread where I complained about the FP values of some of the small arms in relation to each other: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/008696.html

my personal conclusion on all this (incl. your complaint about the LMG FP anomaly) is that the abstracted FP values are simply an achilles heel of using abstracted infantry that we will have to live with.

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

[Schugger]

Thanks for the quick response as well as for the interesting link, M. Hofbauer ( though it is quite hard for me To follow technical grog stuff there).

Well, if you say that the FP for LMGs is reduced at ranges of up to 40 meters for the reasons you posted above, I do not understand why this is only the case for the VG squad. If I understood the reasoning correctly, then all LMGs ( for this example) should have a reduced FP value which is not the case.

Anyway, your post was greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Schugger

[M Hofbauer]

Schugger,

you are very welcome. My initial response was done without me looking at the game itself, and after the 1.05 patch I didn't get to play CM very much. In the meantime since my first response I took a look at the issue and I think you are definitely on to something. I think that indeed you have found a bug:

FP/Range-------------------------40-----100-----250----500

Motorized Infantry Squad

2x LMG42-------------------------100------90------60-----36

Volksgrenadier Squad, Rifle 44 Squad etc.

1x LMG42--------------------------50------45------30-----18

Volksgrenadier Heavy SMG Squad

2x LMG42--------------------------40------78------64-----38

The FP values of the LMG 42 within the Heavy SMG squad are inconsiostent with the FP values used for the same weapon in every other german team and are definitely f-ed up. I only hope that the data we are given within the team info window are just text and do not show the actual value used for the game engine. If this is the case, the wayoff FP values for the LMG 42 in the VG Hvy SMG squad are an aesthetic minus but not detrimental to gameplay.

So yes we have a bug. Unfortunately, as is the case with other real issues in the game, I fear the majority of today's audience on this board will probably once again show itself more interested in mundane crap than dealing with real game issues.

hope somebody capable to do so will give you a beter explanation what's really the case with this anomaly (I'ld be very interested myself)

have a nice day,

M.Hofbauer

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"Rule#7: All players must follow the rules." (Rob/1)

[Hamstersss]

This does seem to pose an issue as, if I recall correctly, BTS does not model the weapons differently between units. Why you would want to include a crass comment about the quality of the community is beyond me, however.

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Have you ever tried to buy an atomic bomb? They're expensive as hell, even without wheels!

[RudeLover]

I recall a discussion of this. IIRC, there is an assumption that one or two members of the squad assist the LMG gunner at certain ranges, but that when the bad guys get real close, the asst gunners pick up a rifle/SMG and start blasting, making the LMG less effective. Desperate times breed desperate measures...

Check this thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/003321.html

(Edited after searching...search terms 'assistant' and 'MG.')

[This message has been edited by RudeLover (edited 10-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RudeLover (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Hamstersss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RudeLover:

I recall a discussion of this. IIRC, there is an assumption that one or two members of the squad assist the LMG gunner at certain ranges, but that when the bad guys get real close, the asst gunners pick up a rifle/SMG and start blasting, making the LMG less effective. Desperate times breed desperate measures...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rude, this is not what we're talking about. It's accepted that FP decreases at short range with LMGs, what is not accepted is that the damage at range for one unit's LMG is different that that for all the other units.

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Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts—some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole.

-Theodosius Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution"

[RudeLover]

Hmmm. Maybe I'm still misunderstanding the question, but I thought Steve G. addressed this in the thread I cited:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hehe... figured someone would notice that. The rationale is that for the MG42 to fire effectively there needs to be an assistant engaged in feeding the beast. This means the assistant isn't using his own weapon. Therefore the Firepower of teh assistant's weapon is subtracted from the MG42. In the case of the Rifle Squad this is a Kar98k, a realitively weak weapon. In the Heavy SMG unit it is a MP40, which at close range is a very powerful weaon (realitively). The BAR and Bren don't have such problems as they are not crew served. Yes, I know the MG42 can be fired by one man, but in combat conditions this is pretty tough to do effectively. So on balance it is more fair to do it like I described above.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note the phrase: Therefore the Firepower of the assistant's weapon is subtracted from the MG42. I think that's the difference Schugger noted...

Then Lee wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Interesting. So, in a heavy squad the assistant gunner is assumed

to grab his own weapon in a close range fight, thus lowering the

effective firepower of the MG-42 but increasing the overall

firepower of the squad at that range due to the extra personal

weapons being brought to bear? But once the range increases to 100

yards or so then the assistant gunners go back to helping the

gunners fire the mg and this causes the spike in the effectiveness of

the mg's at the longer ranges. I have that right, Steve?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Steve agreed later in the thread...his message is more informative than anything I could produce since he knows what he's talking about. I thought this addressed the issue Schugger was asking about; if not, sorry for the waste of bandwidth.

[This message has been edited by RudeLover (edited 10-26-2000).]

[Hamstersss]

Rude, I may be misunderstanding, too, but it seems strange that every squad but one has the exact same values at range. It seems more to me that they were rated on some older FP rating. I could be wrong but it seems spurious.

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Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts—some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole.

-Theodosius Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution"

[Guest Big Time Software]

RudeLover has it correct. The difference is what weapon the assistant gunner holds. In the Mot squad it is a Kar98k, in the Heavy SMG unit it is an MP40. Therefore, the FP ratings of TWO Kar98ks are deducted from the LMG ratings for the Mot squad and 2 MP40s are deducted from the LMG ratings for the Heavy SMG unit.

For example, look at 500m. We have rated a single LMG42 at 19 FP at 500m. Since an MP40 is not capable of shooting at that range, the two LMGs in the Heavy SMG Squad have no deductions, and therefore the combined FP rating is 38 (19 each). In the other two examples Hofbauer pointed to the assistant is a rifle man, armed with a Kar98k with a FP rating of 1 at 500m. So a single LMG42 has a rating of 18 and two have 36. You can do the math for the other ranges and it should work out just fine like this.

Hope that clears things up

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 10-27-2000).]

[Dschugaschwili]

Why doesn't somebody with a MP40 take the role of the assistant gunner in a motorized squad, at least at longer ranges if he really can't do anything with his weapon in those cases? Sounds a bit strange to me. Can somebody with deeper knowledge on this subject clear this up?

Dschugaschwili

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Erst hat man kein Glück, und dann kommt auch noch Pech dazu.

[The DesertFox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why doesn't somebody with a MP40 take the role of the assistant gunner in a motorized squad, at least at longer ranges if he really can't do anything with his weapon in those cases?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it doesn´t matter if the MG-Gunner 2 has a K98 a MP40 or a G3. When the MG is engaged in a firefight, longrange or not, the MG-Gunner 2 job is to assist the MG gunner 1, and nothing else. He simply hasn´t any time to feed the MG and fire his own weapon.

That´s what SOB was in WW2 and that´s what SOB is today. No rangedependent increase/decrease. Either the MG fires and the assistant gunner doesn´t fire, or the MG doesn´t fire and the assistant gunner fires his weapon, whatever that is.

Cheers

Helge

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- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

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[Schugger]

Thanks for clearing that up ( excellent digging, RudeLover ).

I had never thought about that squad integrated LMGs do require an assistent gunner to operate properly ( i.e., to full efficency).

So, it isn't a bug but a feature

[RudeLover]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thanks for clearing that up ( excellent digging, RudeLover ).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It just serves to remind me how much time I've spent reading the doggone forum when I should have been working...I remember reading the first thread and thinking, geez, these guys think of everything.