howardb Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Had my first parachute drop yesterday and what a rush. I was thinking about the airborne troops during WW2 when I looked out the door. Those guys had to have balls of steel considering they didn't have our times safety measures (backup chute etc). Btw I recommend it everyone to try, it's amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 They also had 88mm flak guns and machineguns poring lead into the sky ------------------ The names Ash, Housewares [This message has been edited by Ash (edited 08-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Congrats, Now picture doing the same thing in a military a/c (bumpy nap-of-earth flying by reserve pilots) , with combat gear and at night, with maybe 500 other paras around you.. Half of my jumps were at night--you get a different perspective...and this is in peacetime..... As a humorous aside....My first jump with the 82nd Abn Division (6th jump) was on a cold Jan night. I exited ok, had a good canopy and was basically enjoying the ride. When I estimated approx 100ft off the ground (tree level), I went to lower my equip but, couldn't because I 'saw' other 'jumpers' below me--didn't want to entangle..I couldn't get away and clear of them, and at the last minute realized I was about to strike the ground.. What I actually saw was the shadows of parachutes in the full moon...what a newbie..... ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted August 15, 2000 Author Share Posted August 15, 2000 Airborne: What kind of chutes did you guys use and what about the exit, did you have to "press X"? I don't think I've been more terrified than when I was look out the door of that plane, boy was it scary. How about your first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 HowardB--We used two types of chutes--the old T-10 which was round/solid and had little manueverablity and the MC1-1B which had some panels removed from the back to allow air through-this gave forward motion and by pulling on toggles you were able to 'steer' somewhat better. The T-10 was used more during 'mass tactical' jumps--multiple planes, many people in the air at once--you didn't want troopers (esp newbies) able to steer around all over the sky-too much chance of mid altitude entanglements... My first jump actually wasn't bad--out of a C123 Provider (mini C130 2 engines).. After the 2+ weeks of training it went fine..the 29 after that were worse--I knew what to expect.. The exit depended on the type of a/c.. C-130 or other turboprop a/c required a rear/side door exit --staggered both doors and a good jump up and out. The C-141B Starlifter (4 engine-jet) required a 'walk' out at a 45 degree angle--you didn't want to jump out and up into the jet blast....the jet definately was a nicer ride but a stronger opening.. Two of my best jumps were "hollywood" jumps--no combat equipment, daylight and exited via the rear tailgate--once out of a C-130 and once out of a C7A Caribou..Those were awesome... Edit--I forgot to mention--all jumps were with a static line to open the chutes...most efficient way to deploy many troopers from low altitude.. Most of my jumps were from 800 or 1000 feet. Combat SOP is 500ft with no reserve chute...... ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet [This message has been edited by Airborne (edited 08-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Airborne: Most of my jumps were from 800 or 1000 feet. Combat SOP is 500ft with no reserve chute...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What height did allied airborne troops jump from during WW2? I seem to recall reading some where that the Fallschirmjaegers used to jump from as low as 200 feet... of course the down side was that they were unarmed until they recovered their containers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted August 15, 2000 Author Share Posted August 15, 2000 That's very low.. no margin whatsoever for errors. I had my first jump from 3500 feets that gives you enough time to open the reserve chute. Hope I never need to use a round chute, make hard landings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 It was around 500ft in WWII.. Right before I got out (1985) I heard they were experimenting with chutes to drop at below 500 ft...Yeah, unlike our fallshirmjager brethren, we jumped with most of our equipment--light mortars, dragon AT launchers, rifles,, etc....we could hit the ground rockin'....... At 800 ft, upon exiting we counted to 4 , if you didn't feel the opening shock (it was obvious) you had maybe 1-2 seconds to pull your reserve or splat!!!!......Chris ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by howardb: I was thinking about the airborne troops during WW2 when I looked out the door. Those guys had to have balls of steel considering they didn't have our times safety measures (backup chute etc).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, they did have reserve chutes. Problem was that if you had a streamer, it might interfere with the opening of your reserve chute too. In any event, jumping from 500 ft. didn't give you much time to get your reserve open if your main chute didn't work. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 I've had a question that's always bugged me. I know in Market Garden and Normandy that Germans were shooting at paratroopers coming down. Could they shoot back while in the air? Is it possible now with newer controllable parachutes? What is the doctrine for using paratroopers in the modern battlefield? ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Disaster@work: I've had a question that's always bugged me. I know in Market Garden and Normandy that Germans were shooting at paratroopers coming down. Could they shoot back while in the air? Is it possible now with newer controllable parachutes? What is the doctrine for using paratroopers in the modern battlefield? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We never trained for that---anything you have on you has to be tied, taped or carefully stowed so as not to be lost on exiting..Maybe you could have a pistol handy but rifles are kept in weapons cases strapped on the side of your body..Every mass tactical jump I was on was potentially dangerous because of the debris falling from the heavens on the 2nd and 3rd passes.. I've seen knives, helmets, gas masks etc fall because troopers didn't have them properly stowed..You drop too low and too fast to effectively employ a weapon from the air. Plus, its usually night (Market -Garden excepted). The newer chutes (and old) require 2 hands to operate--no Rambo **** here--don't believe Hollywood... ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7th ghost Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 IF YOUR GOING TO POST A AIRBORNE FORUM THEN YOU MUST TALK ABOUT GERMAN PARA OPPS AND THE TROOPS.THEIR RECORD WILL SPEAK FOR THEM.THOUGH IM NOT A AIRBORNE MYSELF JUST A MEER SAILOR AND MAY NOT BE WORTHY.BUT IT WONT TAKE MUCH DIGGING FOR YOU TO SEE MY POINT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 7th ghost: IF YOUR GOING TO POST A AIRBORNE FORUM THEN YOU MUST TALK ABOUT GERMAN PARA OPPS AND THE TROOPS.THEIR RECORD WILL SPEAK FOR THEM.THOUGH IM NOT A AIRBORNE MYSELF JUST A MEER SAILOR AND MAY NOT BE WORTHY.BUT IT WONT TAKE MUCH DIGGING FOR YOU TO SEE MY POINT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No I don't, actually. Just another example of Hitler squandering away fine troops.. Edit--BTW, You don't have to YELL at us--turn your Caps Lock off... ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet [This message has been edited by Airborne (edited 08-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7th ghost Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 sorry about caps anyway so you dont see my point,well i can give you a list from the capture of that french line cant spell the name hehe to norway,denmark on on to the great defence at casino. to really make a good point the movie the eagle has landed though fictious you can a feel for what mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted August 16, 2000 Author Share Posted August 16, 2000 I wouldn't count Norway and Denmark as great feats by the Jägers (I'm from Norway myself). Our defense litterally sucked and Denmark is way to flat to delay the Germans considerably. The attack on the Belgian fort or Monte Casino on the other hand showed their worth. Crete wasn't a blowing success either but the men fought good nevertheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degrees of Frost Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Though I believe in Crete the New Zealanders taught them the dangers of jumping without weapons stowed on themselves. Hitting the ground, getting untangled and then having to look for one's weapons - the whole time being chased around by angry New Zealanders with bloody great bayonets. ----WINCE---- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 There were quite a few aussies sticking it up 'em on Crete too. A few Cretans armed with pitchforks as well IIRC. In fact the only troops Martin Poppel seems to have had anything good to say about were the ANZACs. Though he wasn't too hard on the Russians either. The FJs had their arses saved by the GJs on Crete and it was the essentially the end of airborne assaults for them. ------------------ "I never saw such a dejected army, even the Italians carried themselves better in the old desert days. They were mostly Germans, but includede Poles, Russians, Mongols, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Frenchmen, even one American - all in Nazi uniforms." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Disaster@work wrote: > Could they shoot back while in the air? I'm not sure there would be much point in that. The Germans would be having a hard enough time hitting fast-moving targets (although the prolifery of targets would help), and it would have been a miracle if the paras had been able to hit anyone on the ground, even if they could actually see who was shooting. They'd have to watch they didn't hit any of their own guys, too. They'd be more concerned with landing without breaking their legs - or anything else. They jumped with their rifles strapped around them, which they had to detach and dangle below them on a line. If they passed out on jumping, or otherwise failed to detach their rifle, they would break their necks. Even if they managed to unpack their weapon and start firing in the short them they were dropping, they would have to work out what to do with it when they landed - most likely toss it aside, and risk damaging it. The _real_ problem with being shot at, is if the people who are shooting at you are right below you. You're not too easy to hit while you're falling, but once you hit the ground you're a sitting duck. In this respect, the Polish drop at Arnhem wasn't nearly as bad as the American drop at St Mere Eglise during the Normandy landings. Interestingly, the film The Longest Day does show American paras firing as they fall on St Mere Eglise. I'm not sure if that's historically accurate, but I suppose if you see you're about to fall in amongst the enemy and get killed, you'd probably want to put up a fight. In that situation the practical considerations of a para drop are less important than simple survival. David P.S. Forgot to mention - they don't do mass para drops any more - if they did a Market Garden nowadays it would be slaughter. ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT [This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 08-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Yeah I wish there were some New Zealand troops (or ANZACS)to deal with those jerry para's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Disaster@work wrote: P.S. Forgot to mention - they don't do mass para drops any more - if they did a Market Garden nowadays it would be slaughter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Considering the US only has 1 Airborne Division (the 82nd) I agree.. In Grenada, the Rangers dropped about a full Battalion on the airfield and that's typically what you see. However, the 82nd practices deploying anywhere from a battalion taskforce to a brigade or more at one time.. Constraints such as availablity of transport a/c dictate more what you can drop.. In my posts I refer to mass tactical drops meaning multiple a/c, many troopers in the air which is how it is still practiced today.. You will likely never see a multidivison drop again just as you will not see a battleship duel or a 3 million man march into Russia.... ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted August 16, 2000 Author Share Posted August 16, 2000 Saw a little program on Discovery about the US Rangers a little while back. What I liked was their unorthodox(?) loadout. I mean they even had the Carl Gustav recoilless AT gun, a heavy mortar (don't remember the mm) and some other stuff based on speedy deployment. Saw them rush a mock village, very impressive. What about that rifle with the sights mounted on the side for urban fighting??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 howardb wrote: > What about that rifle with the sights mounted on the side for urban fighting??? Cowards. They should come out and get their heads blown off like everyone else. Mind you, if the US military doesn't find a way to achieve 0.0 per cent casualty rates, they'll never fight a ground war again. And if Kosovo was anything to go by, that means they'll never win a war again. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Whataya mean according to our Lying, Liberal, Draft dodging, womanizing, cheating, etc. etc President, Kosovo was an unqualified success. Couldn't pass this up. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: howardb wrote: Mind you, if the US military doesn't find a way to achieve 0.0 per cent casualty rates, they'll never fight a ground war again. And if Kosovo was anything to go by, that means they'll never win a war again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL There isn't a U.S. President out there who is willing to risk U.S. lives outside of the Americas. But soon enough. Watch Colombia in the next five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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