PvK Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 The percentage of indirect fire HE rounds that explode in the air (air bursts) when falling on areas with trees (all three types) seems to be higher than I would expect, thinking about the percentage of firm branches and tree trunk in the space above real-life trees and woods, and the resistance I _imagine_ an incoming shell would be detonated by. On that last point, I really don't know how much plant is required to set off a falling shell. However I expect it would take more than leaves and light branches to set off a shell. In play, it seems like woods can turn out to be rather less useful as cover than I would expect from my reading and from having been in actual woods and observing the huge amount of cover and concealment potential compared to an open field. So: What is the actual percent chance given for the different terrain and ammo types, that a round will explode in the air? What was this based on? Isn't it a bit high? PvK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 Depends on how the fuse is set on the shell, I'd imagine. By the end of WW1 artillerists had figured out how to set fuses to explode on "graze" against razor wire. I'd think a tree would offer at least that much resistance to a falling shell. Don't take this for the official grog's answer, though ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 Not sure what you've been reading, but check out the Huertgen forest battles... treebursts were a major source of casualties and fuzes were designed specifically to take advantage of their effect. Also, just down from the small branches are the big hairy ones. Any shell burst above ground is going to be more effective than one on (or in) the ground, as more of the blast is available where the people are, plus the HE gets to use all those big and little branches as free shrapnel. This is why soldiers learned to top their foxholes with stout logs- to protect them from the falling and flying lumber. Tree-bursts were an art-form for artillerymen, as one of them will no doubt tell us very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PvK Posted September 2, 2000 Author Share Posted September 2, 2000 I realize that an airburst could be quite deadly, at least to people who weren't behind the other treetrunks and branches from the explosion. I just wonder about the frequency, as it seems quite high. If as Chupacabra says, they could go off on grazing a light branch, then I suppose the proportion could be right. I'd be curious to know what the actual percentage in the game is (seems like maybe 15% light woods, 50% woods), and what the reasoning was that led to those numbers. Of course, any other relevant info about fuses and statistics would be interesting, too. PvK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 Hehe...I remember reading a book that stated that in order to escape the artillery barrages in forests, you weren't supposed to hug the ground. Instead hug a tree. Minimized your vertical surface area I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 Even the german tank guns had variable settings on the HE fuzes. I have read of too many accounts of german armor firing into trees and getting bursts beyond walls, etc. I wont go into the ability to skip flat trajectory shells. Mortars have to be careful not to fire into leaves over their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 PvK wrote: > (seems like maybe 15% light woods, 50% woods) This seems pretty reasonable to me. I take the Woods in CM to be pretty dense. We're not talking simple canopies here, like a rainforest - we're talking a three-dimensional maze of branches. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 Another trick that I have read regarding airbursts in ww2, is that veteran troops would sometimes hug a tree when shells came in on the forest. From above, they are much smaller target to shrapnel than if they were sprawled out on the ground. Just their helmet and maybe their back exposed. I dont know how well it worked, perhaps it was just to keep them from feeling helpess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager 7 Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 The frequency of air burst by artillery would be in direct proportion to the density of the woods/trees. The more woods the more "tree bursts". I think they are modeled quite well in CM. By the way....the term "graze burst" means it detonates on the ground. It's not a fuse setting. In CM you have two choices from what I have seen. There are regular Point Detonating fuses (PD) that detonate upon impact and you have Variable Timed fuse (VT) it you're the allies....sometimes. The VT as has been explained in other threads is a specially designed fuse to achieve an air burst...about 20 Meters above the ground. Hope that helps some. Out here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jager 7: By the way....the term "graze burst" means it detonates on the ground. Out here.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Er, are you sure? Everything I've ever read on artillery (which is admittedly limited) led me to believe that a graze burst was a shell which detonated upon grazing something light, like wire or a tree, hence the term. This is obviously not a burning issue, but I'm curious ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager 7 Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 Chupacabra quote _________________________________ "Er, are you sure? Everything I've ever read on artillery (which is admittedly limited) led me to believe that a graze burst was a shell which detonated upon grazing something light, like wire or a tree, hence the term. This is obviously not a burning issue, but I'm curious " ____________________________________________ No problem...but yep...I'm sure. Graze means it detonates on the ground...as opposed to an air burst. By the way, it's what I do for a living. (Marine FO) ------------------ When the situation is obscure....attack! CGen. Heinz Guderian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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