Firing through bridges

[PvK]

I don't know if this is a new topic or not (if not just let me know), but I noticed that solid stone bridges can be fired through.

I was playing the rather challenging (for my first try, anyway) second training scenario "Small Gain," and saw what looked like a nice blind spot hiding on the reverse slope by the side of the bridge. However, the Germans driving along the wooden bridge managed to spot and fire at my units directly through the stone bridge. The LOS/LOF line had to bend over the stone bridge to get to my units, and I watched the fire from the German gunner's position, and saw it going through the stone.

PvK

[Shooter]

I don't want to sound like I don't believe you....but are you sure you had your unit scale set to 'realistic'? I had the same thing happen to me and I thought it was some sort of bug till I was told this.

[PvK]

Ah! That's a good point, but yes, I was using "Realistic" unit scale, and it was a fairly extreme case where the firer was on the bridge up the river, at the same level as the stone bridge, I think, and the target unit was a jeep down in the ravine below, next to the river. Also, I could see the rounds from the firer going through the stone bridge. I'll try to reproduce it and take screenshots.

PvK

[Shooter]

Oh well, I thought I had solved it for you!

Next best guess would be there's some gaps in the cement holding those bricks together.

[This message has been edited by Shooter (edited 07-01-2000).]

[PvK]

Ok, I took screenshots from the firing and target positions, facing each other.

The firer's position on the bridge can see a little of the FAR side of the ravine, but not the side that the target was on.

<img src="http:\\www.wargamer.com\cm\PvKimages\1.jpg". )

The target's position can see none of the bridge the firer was on - I marked the approximate firer position with a red X.

<img src="http:\\www.wargamer.com\cm\PvKimages\2.jpg". )

[This message has been edited by PvK (edited 07-01-2000).]

[Notnowjohn]

Uh......how 'bout a SPOILER warning?

[Shooter]

PvK:

Did you consider that your shot did NOT have a flat trajectory after it left the gun? From your pictures, it seems to me that your shot could have arced over the bridge surface and still hit the target. At that range, I would think your shell would have to drop to some degree due to gravity. Maybe the gunner is using a little Kentucky windage to adjust for it. If so, I'm really impressed with the game's AI!

dt

[PvK]

NotnowJohn:

Spoiler? I don't see how - this is a small US-only training scenario and I only minimally described a singular shot several turns into the action, which started with the AI option to be able to set up its own forces as it pleased. I had to move the unit to the target position myself, so the situation isn't part of the scenario, but part of the result of moves. The info that the Germans have something with a gun that drives is clear from reading the scenario's briefing.

[PvK]

Shooter wrote:

"Did you consider that your shot did NOT have a flat trajectory after it left the gun? From your pictures, it seems to me that your shot could have arced over the bridge surface and still hit the target. At that range, I would think your shell would have to drop to some degree due to gravity"

Shooter, that idea did occur to me. However, as I mentioned in the first post, I actually watched the replay of the shot, and watched the shot arcing along, going right through the stone.

Shooter also wrote:

"Maybe the gunner is using a little Kentucky windage to adjust for it. If so, I'm really impressed with the game's AI!"

Hehe, yeah, there's probably a realistic 1/50,000 chance that the shooter is a Hollywood action hero genius who doesn't need to see his target in order to know where to shoot. Maybe he was able to judge from a reflected shadow in the water under the bridge...

One thing that may have something to do with it is that the firer did have an LOS to the target on the turn before at some time, but then lost it, and both units had moved. It stopped to fire to make this shot, however, as if the hill were enough to block LOS, but not the stone bridge. Maybe having the target acquired before was a factor in the programming.

Anyway, it appeared like the stone bridge was not a LOS-blocking object. Has anyone ever seen a bridge actually definately block LOS or LOF in CM?

PvK

[edited to replace <quot> tags with quote marks - what is the HTML this board recognizes for quotes?]

[This message has been edited by PvK (edited 07-02-2000).]

[Buckeye]

I haven't seen a bridge yet, but based on comments that Charles has made about how LOS around buildings can cut through corners, I'd wonder if the same could happen through bridges. That would explain what you saw (i.e., the shot going through the bridge). The same can happen with buildings, and a bridge is treated the same way.

------------------

"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[snagdad]

In the manual is a discussion about how the graphics are basically window dressing (and if you consider your monitor a window into the game engine this is a literal statement) for the calcualtions that go on in the game engine. There was a statement that CM would play just as well (with little fun) with no graphics at all. Consider the question early in the thread about what display size was set, realistic scale or other ? IMO this would make no difference at all; just because you set your guys bigger so you can see them better does not mean that to the engine they are bigger targets ! In some rare cases apparently the graphics representation of the game engine mathematics is slightly off; hence we have seen tanks hitting targets apparently obscured by building corners and the current transparent bridge. Whether these are bugs or the stuff would go away if the graphics were tightened up a few pixels I don't know. It seems likely to me that this is the explanation for some of these anomalies.

As far as a spoiler, this isn't much of one, but there is another forum for "scenario specific" discussion. As soon as the name of the scenario is mentioned, perhaps it should be considered scenario specific.

finally, my wife tells me that, when I am playing at night with the headphones on, I have started to talk to myself, muttering things about bazookas and shermans and "take that, you nazi swine !" sort of stuff.

[PvK]

Ya, I suppose the answer is "the graphics aren't meant to be taken literally" so it's just a point of information that although the stone bridges look extremely solid and LOS-blocking, they actually aren't in practice.

BTW, I do have fun with games without fancy graphics.