Varous tactics questions

[Guest GriffinCheng]

I have a question on troop deployments:

1. I think MMG and HMG provide excellent fire support for attack and defense roles but they are slow on move and most of the time they cannot keep up with my regular platoons during assults. I realise most firing fights works best < 100m. Any tips?

2. About house. I always have problems when moving my troops within a house. I try to get a squad into firing pos in a house but most of the time, it is not moving to proper position. Worse, when a squad is under fire in a house and I wish to move them to another corner which is away from enemy LOS, it fails to comply even though the moral status is not still "OK".

[Benny]

yeah. Defending flanks with HMG are the only sort of situations they work best....I mean, look at D-day.

[Guest Stabsfeldwebel]

As i understand it, the MG's and HMG's on both sides of the war were used primarily for support and defensive positions. Not really supposed to be in conjuction with the rapid advance of infantry. Example: If your advancing on enemy strongpoint you use your HMG to suppress fire from the bunker or whatever your attacking, beyond the bunker the defenses should be a lot weaker, thus limited the need for such heavy suppression.

The "mobile" mg's that could move as fast as the common infantry group were the LMG's such as the bren, and the BAR.

Seen what you mean by they won't go right where you want them to, my solution is to just space your men out, remember the 3 man groups represent a lot of guys, 12 even on the allied side. That many guys simply can not group into the corner easily.

[citizen]

1. MMG and HMG teams shouldn't keep up with the riflemen. Those MG teams do best when they are back a ways from the action and can lay down suppressive fire. Place them somewhere so they have a good line of sight to the location that is going to be assaulted. But keep them back a couple hundred meters, so they don't get any effective firing thrown back at them. They will fire and keep the enemy heads down, so the assault can get close enough to deal some real damage.

2. It is often a good idea to use Level One view when trying to place troops in houses. Note that it is not necessary to have all 3 soldiers depicted inside the walls to get the benefit. Just click on the unit and it will tell you what terrain it occupies.

There's another thing that may be happening here... You may be trying to cram too many guys into a house, so they step on each other's toes and then try to move around.

Also, if a unit is under fire it may not go just where you want it to.

citizen

[Moon]

Here's a hint: when a squad is under fire in a house, have it CRAWL back the first few meters until it gets out of LOS. Crawling means not only a shorter command delay, but also less exposure to enemy fire.

[Guest kevi]

Here is a few words on squad tactics and machine guns. It comes from “German Squad Tactics in WWII” as translated and published by the Military Intelligence Service in 1943

And re-published by M. Gajkowski from the original “German Squad in Combat”.

On Page One:

Quote

“In contrast to the doctrine of other nations the German Army holds that the MG not the rifle is the backbone of infantry tactics. The German squad is built around the light MG. It is the squad’s base of fire. The riflemen support and provide ammo for it. In the US squad, the riflemen are the base of fire and the BAR supports the riflemen. This may be one reason why the Germans stayed with the K98k rifle (1889-mod. 1930’s). In the US squad the M1 was the newer weapon while their automatic weapon, the BAR (1918) was old. In the German squad, the MG34 was the new design (1936). The Germans even came out with a replacement

for the MG34 in 1942 (MG42).

All German soldiers learned how to use the machine gun, but only the best marksmen were given further training on it.” End Quote

So from the German side the light MG determined the pace of movement. Because I am new to CM I can not speak to the different movement rates of individual units. Nor do I know how the MG34 and BAR are modeled. I will look at that later today for sure. In any event, I am pretty sure the designers of CM are aware of this fundamental difference in squad tactics and incorporated it into the sim. The Germans gained much respect for the machine gun

from their WWI experience. The MG34 had an exceptional rate of fire, was light, and reliable even in conditions were allied guns would jam. They learned how to use the MG offensively using inflitration tactics in their last great offensive in 1918.

The way I often look at it is as follows. The German riflemen escorted the MGs into battle (and to a lesser extent forward arty observers). The US riflemen escorted the

forward arty and TAC air observers into battle. Both armies tried to neutralize positions with fire, not with infantry charges (last resort). Firefights between riflemen developed as German and US escort activities came in contact. Most casualties came from arty fire not rifle or MG. The goal was to avoid close assault by riflemen and persuade the enemy to move out of positions with fire. In the German case, MG and arty. In the US, a layering of air, arty, and rifle fire (if needed). Bullets not bodies. When a position was stubborn, (often)riflemen became more active when all other means to push the enemy out failed. This often included riflemen using fire and movemnet to storm positions. These are the types of battles I think we fight using CM.

- Kevin

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hi all,

Kevin's quote from the German squad handbook (hehe... I have an original as well as the reprint ) is bang on. The LMG (MG42 w/bipod) was meant to go along with the fighting troops at "rifleman" speed. The HMG (MG42 w/tripod) was designed for long range suppressive fire. There is some bit in the handbook about this, but I don't have time to look it up right now.

As others have said, the HMG on the attack was meant to cover the initial assault. After that the HMG was largely left behind, but could be brought up if the attacking infantry hit a second, strong line of resistance. The main problem with HMGs (and US MMGs) is that they are heavy and the crew is weighed down by lots of ammo. The LMG team, on the other hand, was outfitted to be nearly as mobile as a rifleman so that they could keep up with the first wave of attackers.

The other notes on houses are right on as well. You are probably trying to put too many guys in one spot. The movement system tries to tell you about this when you are plotting your moves, but situations can happen that make this not work. Basic rule of thumb is one squad per corner of a small house, or two teams (HQs count as a team). Camera #5 can sometimes help you out in really tight situations.

Steve

[howardb]

All the Norwegian Army's infantry squads are deployed with an MG3 (MG42) and they move just as quick as the rest with G3's. Jeez.. we're into the weight discussions again LOL.

[Guest kevi]

Steve -

I was poking around CM in more depth and indeed the MG34 and BAR are part of the base squad. So there are many more automatic weapons around than the individual HMGs

and MMGs shown as separate units.

I looked in The Handbook on German Military Forces and its interesting that both MG34 and 42 could be used as light or heavy MGs.

Bipod = light tripod = heavy. It looks like in CM squads have 34's with bipods and

the individual MG units have 42's with tripods. The tripod allowed for greater rate of fire due to a more stable platform. Both the ammo caliber were the same. "Heavy" I guess means heavier fire rate and heavier platform. The US MMG (30 caliber) and HMG (50 caliber) had different size bullets.

So the individual MGs in CM are the support weapons you speak of and should move slower.

- Kevin

[Guest scurlock]

The MG42 could be belt (HMG) or drum fed (MMG). The BAR was a clip fed weapon. Of course the drum and clip setups were much lighter and mobile.

[Guest GriffinCheng]

Thank you people!

As the attacker, I find one of my biggest problems is to co-ordinate my attack and use firepower properly.

Now I am trying to get hold of that book...

Griffin.

-- a guy who played wargames for over 5 years and never get it right.

[Herr Jung]

As others have pointed out, the German doctrine was to use the MG as the main source of firepower. I take it that this also meant very aggressive deployment of various types of MGs. HMGs were indeed used for laying down suppressing fire. I've seen, however, several instances from wartime documentary/training films where German HMGs were moved about in close support of attacking infantry such as in town fighting. They fired away seemingly without cover at close range, and I thought it was a mighty brave thing.

As for movement, a crew handling an MG34/42 on Lafette tripod mount would be weighed down when trying to move the whole package for a short distance. But when the system is all disassembled and distributed to the crew for moving to a distant spot, I think their movement should not be penalized too greatly compared to a regular rifle infantry squad.

MG34 w/ bipod = 12.1 kg

Lafette34 tripod = 23.6 kg

Combined = 35.7 kg

MG42 w/ bipod = 11.6 kg

Lafette42 tripod = 20.5 kg

Combined = 32.1 kg

The mounting and dismounting of the MGs would probably take less than 20 seconds, respectively. The folding up of the tripod for portage would also be quite easy. The setting up of a good firing position would take much longer.

I'm not sure if this could be modeled in CM.

HerrJung

[Guest kevi]

Here is were I got the book GC refered to

Military Matters in Hopewell NJ,USA

OR

http://www.onmilitarymatters.com/

Don't ever go the store in person, you will blow your book budget for the year in 15 minutes

It seems there should be some movemment penalty for support MGs especially under fire and taken casualties. The extent of the penalty I dont know. Again will check as I play.

Here is another quote from "German squad Tactics in WWII" page 14

Quote:

"Using indirect fire, from well concealed positions if possible, the heavy machine guns engage the targets indicated to them, particularity enemy machine gun nests. If they can not carry out their mission from covered positions, then they must fire over the heads of the infantry from elevated and open positions, or fire through gaps left by the advancing infantry. In the course of combat, they follow the infantry in echelon formation and provide mutual fire support. As critical points in the hostile line are reached <this is were much or CM is played>

the coordination between the HMGs and advanced infantry becomes increasingly important. In this situation it is often necessary to attach a HMG or HMG section

(2 guns) to the advanced rifle companies or platoons."

End quote

The 44 German Infantry Company had 2 HMGs, Other HMGs could be attached from battalion.

- Kevin

[Guest Big Time Software]

Herr Jung,

The big difference is not the gun/tripod, but the quantity of ammo. Even though the HMG team has 6 men, they had a huge number of rounds carried between them. Also, IIRC 4 men also had the fairly heavy Kar98k and ammo load out for it as well as their personal equipment. There were also at least one-two spare barrels carried too.

We had this discussion about weight several times before, and feel confident that these heavily wieghed down teams should NOT be allowed to move as fast as a squad. In fact, the doctrine for the HMG's use (both Allied and German) clearly shows that the weapon was not as mobile. They were assigned defensive or static offensive roles. If they were truly as nimble as a rifle squad, their roles would have been drastically different IMHO.

As stated in the other conversations, a heavy weapons team should be able to sprint very short distances for a great physical condition penalty, but CM's current fatigue system is not designed to allow this to happen realistically. It is something we intend on fixing in the future.

Steve

[Guest GriffinCheng]

It is OT.

I visited the book store web site and find a book name some what like "German Panzer Tactics of WW2". Is it good? Any other good book recommendation? Oh, may be I should start another topic on this.

Griffin.

-- Wargaming over 5 years and still cannot get ir right.

[Trooper]

Just a query on the comment about most wounds being caused by artillery...

Last time I heard, the statement was that most wounds are caused by shrapnel as opposed to bullets. Now, while shrapnel includes artillery, it also includes air strikes (Bombs and exploding bullets) DF armor guns, both infantry support (Stug) and tanks, and, of course, the humble (But extremely nasty) hand grenade,.

Can anyone break things down into the proportions of damage caused?

DWH

Manic Moran

[Guest kevi]

If I remember, most casualties were from traditional artillery (howitzers, guns and mortar)indirect fire. Perhaps we can find a more detailed breakdown. I am sure it exists.

- Kevin

[Guest Big Time Software]

Trooper, do a search on "casualties" or something else like that. There have been several detailed discussions about this. A quick check in Dupy's "Attrition" book shows 52% came from shell fragments, 32% from small arms. I am not sure if the fragments are from traditional means or include tanks. I think it doesn't include tanks as there is a seperate line item for that. IIRC 8%.

Steve