PzKpfw 1 Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 I have been playing alot of inf vs Inf QBs with open snowy flat and gentle hill terrain, with a few buildings and giveing each vetran Rifle Plt an vet MG 42 team. In my latest QB I had 6 MG42s set up with interlocking feilds of fire and they fired almost all their ammo(1 jammed). The casualty results from 500ms to 100ms added up to a combined total fireing thru 30 turns of 2 US Inf casualties. At one point the US inf came right up the middle (packed together) with all the MG42s fireing on them from the front and left & right, the US Inf made it to my MLR despite all this fire, no supression on any of the US squads, whatsoever, I was forced to let my 75mm Inf guns open up to try and restore the situation. Regards, John Waters -------------- "Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 Hmm, how much open ground did they have to cover to get to your positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lee: Hmm, how much open ground did they have to cover to get to your positions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It was all open with gentle slopes. Clear LOS to all 6 vetran MG42 teams. The US Inf covered over 750ms of open flat ground. Regards, John Waters ---------- "Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted August 15, 2000 Share Posted August 15, 2000 Well, that is nuts. Either those guys were incredibly lucky or something is off. How could so many guys cross so much open ground with clear LOS from 6 vet MG-42 teams and only take two casualties? Seems virtually impossible. I wonder if you set up a test on similar terrain if you could get the same result. That would tell us a great deal. By the way, I have never seen such a thing happen where so much MG fire was useless, especially at the shorter ranges you said some of the fighting took place at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lee: Well, that is nuts. Either those guys were incredibly lucky or something is off. How could so many guys cross so much open ground with clear LOS from 6 vet MG-42 teams and only take two casualties? Seems virtually impossible. I wonder if you set up a test on similar terrain if you could get the same result. That would tell us a great deal. By the way, I have never seen such a thing happen where so much MG fire was useless, especially at the shorter ranges you said some of the fighting took place at.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Heh, I never realy paid attention till I saw this thread, so I started paying attention over the last few days. I just finihed a qb where 1 vet MG 42 got 8 casualties, he got 7 of them when the Canadian Inf charged him (bout 8 plts or more) they took him out. I cant realy see why the casualties were so low I had an Inf squad that caused 29 casualties that was 480ms away while the MG 42 was fireing at closer ranges in the end. I think that the volume of fire over an area is to low, I don't mean ROF, but impacts on the targeted units area. MG42s wernt realy used vs single targets but swept an area like a broom. Chargeing 1 should result in some serious casualties, especialy when 5 or 6 plt's cross thru the MG42s target path, the other squads should have taken some collateral damage crossing thru the fire stream just from their density. On a similar note, I dropped an full 105mm barrage on an area with no less then a Can Co in a scattered trees terrain they were all packed up, as they were forming up to attack, this was with the vetran 105 spotter haveing clear LOS & makeing fireing adjustments between turns, the results were 2 inf cas 3 mortars destroyed for a full expenditure of ammo. I was also hitting the same area with 3 turns of OFB 81mm mortars in full los to the vetran 81mm spotter (again makeing adjustments to hit within highest concentration of OPFOR inf) results were 1 inf casualty 1 mortar for full ammo allotment. But in the next scen my spotters racked up around 48 inf casualties and alotta mortars , I am thinking its a random factor in CM programming. Anyway I can honestly say my lucks ran hot & cold with CM I have seen things happen that others havent but then again I'm playing it full tilt . I will try the same setup tonight with the MGs and see if results are any better. Regards, John Waters -------- "Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Well, CM is very realistic that way; sometimes you will get results that, as happens in real life combat, are wildly outside the norm of what you would expect. It's that fuzzy organic quality to the combat that is one of CM's greatest strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lee: Well, CM is very realistic that way; sometimes you will get results that, as happens in real life combat, are wildly outside the norm of what you would expect. It's that fuzzy organic quality to the combat that is one of CM's greatest strengths.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh I agree Lee, I actualy enjoy the weirder things that happen in CM it leaves you always thinking whats gonna go wrong, when, and how can I counter it with what assets I have left at the time, when it does . But i'm still perplexed by my MG42s lack of effectiveness in that QB.. Regards, John Waters ----------- "Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I agree with those that say the MG fire is still not "supressive" enough. If BTS feels that 1.03 addressed the MG ROF, then Id like to have them consider making the MGs have a more profound effect on pinning troops as was mentioned above. Thanks TeAcH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Well I don't know, perhaps the snow is having an affect on the cover. I ran some tests before and after 1.03 and there is a significant difference in the lethality of MGs versus troops running in the open, so much so I am very careful now of doing it. Try that scenario again with the troops in clear/open terrain and I am positive you will see this. Regards, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron: Well I don't know, perhaps the snow is having an affect on the cover. I ran some tests before and after 1.03 and there is a significant difference in the lethality of MGs versus troops running in the open, so much so I am very careful now of doing it. Try that scenario again with the troops in clear/open terrain and I am positive you will see this. Regards, Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ron I'm not sure I understand, what you mean, by snow acting as cover?, The OPFOR was in clear open feild , no cover whatsoever, and clear LOS from all 6 HMGs. As I said its prolly just my luck . Regards, John Waters ------- "Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Hmm, I don't understand either because I hadn't seen that type of result, even after several run throughs, so was just speculating. The only thing that stood out was the snow, were your troops running or moving? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron: Hmm, I don't understand either because I hadn't seen that type of result, even after several run throughs, so was just speculating. The only thing that stood out was the snow, were your troops running or moving? Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The US was attacking my MLR they were advancing at a walk the whole time, the only time they ran was when my 75mm Inf guns rounds started impacting in the middle of them . Regards, John Waters ------------- "Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 One thing I've noticed is that troops assulting MGs seem to survive a lot more when walking instead of running. Now I think this might be a case where the graphics are giving the wrong impression. When you use the 'move' command, it looks like the guys are just strolling on over to the MG. I think the casualty calculations are based more on guys darting from cover to cover, using bushes and ground undulations and what not. Not a parade march up to the MG Guys running towards an MG seem to get chewed up and spit out pretty badly. Which feels about right for a bunch of guys just running full tilt at a MG, cover be damned. I know BTS tweaked the leathility of MGs vs. running infantry for 1.03, maybe it needs to be bumped up a notch against walking infantry also? Granted, when you're running, you do get to close combat range much more quickly, so there are trade offs. As some others have mentioned, a better solution might be to up the pinning effects of MGs. That way, a squad walking up over a long distance (since it will be under fire for a while) will most likely be pinned. If the TacAI will switch targets from pinned to walking squads, I think the affect would be about right. All of the guys will go to ground, you may not get a whole lot of casualties but the squads will be pinned out in the open. Then you open up with the 75 mm IG Obviously, the pinning effects should depend on squad quality. I suspect if you run a test setup like above, but with green squads assulting, you'll see a lot more casulties. [This message has been edited by Ben Galanti (edited 08-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I know one thing, I don't want to be one of the guys that is ordered to cover 750(!) yards of open ground with 6 MG-42 teams firing at us the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted August 19, 2000 Share Posted August 19, 2000 PzKpfw 1: Let us know your results when you run that test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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