dano6 Posted March 23, 2000 Share Posted March 23, 2000 I am playing a game of LD against a PBEM opponent and realized that the .50 caliber is basically useless. He couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. Which of course in real life isn't even close to the truth. In the scenario he is in a raised firing position firing at a half track at a staring range of 350m and by the end of his aiming at 140m. Now I know a .50 caliber round would hole the spw250 through both end at this range but hell he lets of 4 bursts and not one hit. He is being fired upon by 2 spw250 moving at full speed around 40 MPH they give the 50 one loss while the 50 doesn't hit a damn thing. Now my question is, how in the hell does a speeding halftrack hit a open window and get some hits where the emplaced 50 not moving and aiming at these halftracks can't even get a hit on one even at the range 20m. I find this absolutely amazing. Can someone explain this to me? dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 23, 2000 Share Posted March 23, 2000 Chance. It could happen. It did. Come again. But seriously I've used the .50 to great effect. I've taken out halftracks from around 300m before they could leave they're starting area. Not bad for an MG. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 I have no trouble taking out halftracks with the 50 - also depends how much fire hes taking . I doubt taking heavy fire from an mg42 is gonna make him stick his head up and aim lik a sniper ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 ooop [This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 03-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Circumstances are VERY important Your gunners are taking very heavy incomming fire. That knocks off accuracy and also can reduce the number of times your guys shoot in a turn (suppression). So right there your expectations for what your guys can do should be knocked down a few pegs. As for the effectiveness of the .50 vs. a 251, we had a chart up about that match up somewhere. Basically the .50 has little to no chance of knocking out a 251 from the front. In fact, I think it is a zero percent chance of penetration. It can knock out the 251 from the side, but only from fairly close range (300m or so rings a bell). The .50 is powerfull, but it isn't THAT powerfull. As others have said, I have plinked HTs with .50 cal fire in my sleep, but only when the conditions are right. I suspect that a combo of taking lots of nasty incomming fire plus facing is responsible for what you are seeing. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted March 24, 2000 Author Share Posted March 24, 2000 Well Colin there is always a chance for everything isn't there. Maybe the gunner left his glasses at the whorehouse the night before or dropped them in the crapper, or maybe he was scratching his balls and his hand slipped and he misfired all four bursts while he was playing with himself. Seriously I have seen this in many games where either the 50 is very effective or it can't so squat. I want to know why this occurs, is the 50 easily supressed? Is it that sometimes the gunner forgot his glasses? What is the deal. It is pretty tough to miss a 7 x 10 target that is moving directly at you from 100m, especially with the first round. If I remember correctly LOS said that he could pick off an unbuttoned tank commander with an M60 at 1000m. Seems like a 1 X 1 target at 1000m is a little tougher to hit than a Halftrack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted March 24, 2000 Author Share Posted March 24, 2000 Steve the spw250 only has a little over 1/2 and inch of armor on the front. I think a 50 caliber round could easily penetrate this armor from at least 250m. As for the fire it recieved that was from 2 spw250 moving at full speed. Again my question how could they hit a small window and my guy not hit a damn thing when he wasn't moving 30-40 mph. Taking a MG a firing at an area shouldn't supress a well placed MG team especially when the fire isn't accurate because you are flying up a road at high speed. By the way I remember the chart but I can't find it on the search, I believe that the 50 can take out a spw250 from the front at over 400m. dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dano6: Well Colin there is always a chance for everything isn't there. Maybe the gunner left his glasses at the whorehouse the night before or dropped them in the crapper, or maybe he was scratching his balls and his hand slipped and he misfired all four bursts while he was playing with himself. Seriously I have seen this in many games where either the 50 is very effective or it can't so squat. I want to know why this occurs, is the 50 easily supressed? Is it that sometimes the gunner forgot his glasses? What is the deal. It is pretty tough to miss a 7 x 10 target that is moving directly at you from 100m, especially with the first round. If I remember correctly LOS said that he could pick off an unbuttoned tank commander with an M60 at 1000m. Seems like a 1 X 1 target at 1000m is a little tougher to hit than a Halftrack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ahahahah shut up. Yes it's called the idiot variable. Let i equal chance of knocking glasses into the toilet... Where did this 100m stuff come from? In your original post you were talking about long distance shooting. 300m and 100m are very different (Yes I know it went down to 140m but don't try to tell me there's no difference between 100m and 140m). How much are you gonna wanna shoot if two MG 34's are shooting at you? Oh yeah and the .50 in LD is green. That's why. 100m is a pretty long distance. You trying to hit something with a half inch projectile at 100m and it's moving. You must be pretty good. Oh yeah it's a 251 series HT not a 250. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 By the way, while we're talking about armor penetration, Steve, has Charles been leaving his mac run all night while he isn't using it to calculate all those neat color armor penetration diagrams so they can be included on the CD? Wouldn't increase the development time at all and those diagrams are sooo cool. And the CD could easily hold them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TZEENCH Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Well i could bullseye a whoprat with my t16 back home. they arn't bigger than a meter or 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 I believe the correct name is womp rat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted March 24, 2000 Author Share Posted March 24, 2000 Well, Colin if I remember your first post it seemed like you were attacking me a little, as for forgetting the 1 in spw251, it was just a mistake from typing too damn fast without thinking it out. By the way German armor doesn't really impress me all that much so a 1 here and there left out to me is not a really big deal. As for 140m to 100m there is not much difference. It is obvious that you don't fire weapons too much because the difference between 140m and 100m is almost negligible, except if the target is a man or a rabit but a halftrack, I don't think so. Now 300m to 100m is a different story. That is a much bigger difference. I actually watched the movie in question again and realized that there were 6 bursts fired at the spw251 from a range of 330m to a range of 57m and I would guess that not a hit was achieved. Oh and by the way absolutely no one was firing at the 50 for the first 4 bursts. This puts me on a mission to find the diagram that Charles produced just to find out what the deal is. dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TZEENCH Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Lack of caffine....... Some thing i havent felt since..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dano6: Well, Colin if I remember your first post it seemed like you were attacking me a little, as for forgetting the 1 in spw251, it was just a mistake from typing too damn fast without thinking it out. By the way German armor doesn't really impress me all that much so a 1 here and there left out to me is not a really big deal. As for 140m to 100m there is not much difference. It is obvious that you don't fire weapons too much because the difference between 140m and 100m is almost negligible, except if the target is a man or a rabit but a halftrack, I don't think so. Now 300m to 100m is a different story. That is a much bigger difference. I actually watched the movie in question again and realized that there were 6 bursts fired at the spw251 from a range of 330m to a range of 57m and I would guess that not a hit was achieved. Oh and by the way absolutely no one was firing at the 50 for the first 4 bursts. This puts me on a mission to find the diagram that Charles produced just to find out what the deal is. dano6<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry I didn't mean to attack you. I've just had a bad day. Okay it doesn't matter weather or not there's a difference between 100m and 140m. I think I'm just gonna drop this thread. It's not worth it. I'm getting tired of this. Just one thing. Reread the first line of your original post and see how stupid it sounds. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted March 24, 2000 Author Share Posted March 24, 2000 Well Colin, I am getting bored of this also, I am also not having the best day either. I still can't find the penetration diagram on searching through the old threads so I am giving up. Sorry Colin didn't mean to get into a minor flame war. dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Okay doesn't matter. My fault. Let's just leave it at this. .50 cal performance varies. ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Dano6, yeah... sorry. I was thinking of the .30cal, not the .50cal. As for why you seem to be having more problems than some other folks, I don't know. Personally, I can't comment because my experiences come from the current Beta and there have been so many changes since now and the Beta Demo that what is true for one is most likely not true for another. But I recall plinking 251s with my .50cal without difficulty. I remember one scenario where I KO'd two 251s when they were about 400m or so, blocking up one of the roads until a Tiger pushed them aside. As for accuracy, the .50cal is a great weapon but it is no laser guided missle. The sucker only has open sights, not optics. If the gunner is taking heat then expect it to miss. Way back there were a few discussions about accuracy and kills. The debate was about "why do my guys always miss". Point of fact is that one shot, one kill did not happen in WWII. The expendature of small arms ammo to kill ratio was VERY low. That means that there must have been a whole lot of misses a going on SOMEWHERE. Seems your gunner is doing his fair share while mine were having better luck Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Ah, welcome to my **** happens rule. In one PBEM game my opponent took out 3 of my HTs in LD with his 0.5 cal. In another game I peppered Hts with 0.5 cal fire but got no kills at all. Welcome to the fuziness of CM. Maybe 9 times out of 10 ur 0.5 cal would have damaged a HT but this might have been that 1 time in 10 it did nothing, Personally speaking if I was the German commander and was firing suppression from TWO HMGs at an enemy MG team from such close range and it managed to get any effective fire back I'd be extremely pissed off. Basically, the odds weren't on your side.. A panzergrenadier platoon backed by 4 MG-armed HTs advancing slowly in line formation is a VERY potent weapon. It'll suppress entire platoons with ease. 2 MGs firing at an HMG team which just took a casualty or whatever should suppress it in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 I know this had been posted before, but it was mentioned in this thread, so I thought I'd re-post it. Ben [This message has been edited by Ben Galanti (edited 03-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Damn, I didn't know MG42s could kill M3s.. Good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Damn, I didn't know MG42s could kill M3s.. Good to know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well I don't know about CM (yet) but in Close Combat halftracks seem to get toasted practically every time they come under fire from MGs on up. FWIW Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eridani Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Hmmm, how does the armor compare between the M3 and the Kfz 251? I have heard many places that the Mg 42 was the finest machine-gun of the war... but here it appears as though Ma Deuce has a clear advantage, at least in terms of penetrating power... this makes a certain amount of sense actually when you realize how big the 50 cal shot is... my question is, if the M2 was really that much more potent, why do people consider the mg42 the better gun? was it rof? I can understand that a higher ROF would mean more potent Anti infantry Gun... so when we compare the M2 to the Mg42 are we looking at a potent anti-armor vs. a potent anti-infantry gun, or am I just way off the mark here? sorry, a little confused.... -EridanMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 There is something that seems wierd about the diagram - no (or very little) range degradation. Why would 20-30 meters make chance of penetration go from 0 - 100? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 One game I plinked all four HTs in four turns with the 50. It made all the difference as they were still carring passengers! Different day, different result. Thats what I love about this game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 >Why would 20-30 meters make chance of >penetration go from 0 - 100? Probably simple physics. A bullet will either penetrate or not penetrate. In a mathematical world, if a shell has X many joules of energy to impart (Mass x Speed/surface area, or something like that, my physics is rusty) and it takes Y many joules to penetrate a certain type of armor, either X is bigger than Y or it is not. There's no such thing as a little penetration. As you progress in range, the bullet slows down due to drag. Assuming drag to be constant, there will be a range where the 'speed' variable is such that X is no longer higher than Y. Theoretically this 'area of hope' should only be one millimeter or less. In real life, you probably have to factor in things like inconsitensies in the armor plate, variable propellant in each bullet, wind, angle of strike of the shell onto the armor and so on and so forth, making the 'hopeful' range a bit longer, but I'm not sure if these pictures were made off a mathematical or a real data framework. Where do you get those pics anyway? I'd be interested in seeing more. Manic Moran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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