John Kettler Posted December 10, 2000 Share Posted December 10, 2000 I just found this over on AFV News (www.mo-money.com/AFV-news) and thought the troops would find it interesting, especially in light of the misidentified T-26 vs. Panther engagement a few nights on on ABC's Shooting War. Regards, John Kettler Re: Pershing casualities Posted By: James Blackwell <anviljb@mpx.com.au> Date: Saturday, 9 December 2000, at 11:55 p.m. In Response To: Re: Comet and Pershing casualities? (Gary Binder) Depends if you're talking temporary combat loss or total loss. As Gary mentions see pp.17-26 of Hunnicutt's "Pershing" book for a pretty solid account of their first use and fates. He says the first one "lost in action" was serial no. "38" prophetically nicknamed "Fireball", belonging to F Co. 33.Arm.Rgt., which was zapped on the 26th of February 1945. It was positioned behind a roadblock in Elsdorf but became silhouetted at night by fires burning behind it and a Tiger I hit it 3 times at under 100 yards. The first round penetrated the coax MG port in the mantlet then bounced around inside the turret killing the gunner and loader, the second round hit the muzzle brake and set off a round already chambered which caused the barrel to swell at the halfway mark as it fired, and the third round bounced off the RHS of the turret and tore off the open cupola hatch. The Tiger then reversed to change position and became hung up on a pile of rubble and was abandoned. A crewman who was later captured admitted that his Tiger was the one responsible. "Fireball" was later repaired and returned to action on March 7th with a 90mm barrel scrounged from an M36 Jackson. No."22" was also disabled on March 22 by 2 HE rounds which extensively damaged the turret and running gear. Pershing No."25" of H Co. of 33.Arm.Rgt. is probably the one you are referring to, which was KO'd on the bank of the Rhine in Niehl just north of Cologne by a Nashorn at under 300 yards. The round penetrated the lower hull and went between the driver's legs and set the turret on fire. The crew managed to escape before the ammo cooked off and the turret burnt out. It was apparently reparable, but it would have taken several months so it was written off for cannibalising. It was the only one of the 20 "Zebra Mission" T26E3 Pershings committed not to see out the war still in service. FWIW the Tiger belonged to s.Pz.Kp."Hummel" (named after its CO), which was formed in July '44 with 14 Tigers Is as an independent "fire brigade". It first saw service in Arnhem in Sept. and later in Aachen during Oct. under 10.SS. "Hohenstaufen" as part of "KG Spindler". But for the most part it was attached to s.Pz.Abt.506 from mid December on, till Feb. 16 as their 4.Kp. (even though 506 had gone to Tiger IIs in their other 3 Kp.s). As per p.87 of "Tigers in Combat 2" the Tiger in question was abandonned on Feb.22 (vs.26th!* see below) 1945 after the Kp. was reassigned to 81 Armee Korps and was working with Pz.Rgt.33 of 9.Pz. (it was then later finally reassigned to Pz.Bgd. 106 of 52 Armee in early April). See also pp.17-26 of Hunnicutt's "Pershing" book for a pretty solid account of the 20 "Zebra Mission" Pershings and their first use against these Tigers and their fates, plus theres also a front shot and a couple of close ups of the damage on the second Tiger that was KO'd by them. *(Though note the dates don't match up here for the Tiger's demise - 22nd of Feb vs. the 26th?? I think the 26th may be the correct one though) The next day after Fireball and the Tiger were KO'd - the 27th?, another Tiger of "Hummel" again in Elsdorf was actually KO'd, by Pershing No.40. 4 shots hit it at c.900 yards, the first an HVAP destroying the final drive, the second a T33 round, pentrated the base of the mantlet and caused interior explosions, while the last 2 HE rounds did only minor exterior damage. Two Pz.IVs were also KO'd at 1200 yards by single T33 shots then 2 rounds of HE took out the escaping crews. One other Pz.IV was also destroyed by No.40 as they moved towards Cologne a little later. As to the exact marking details of the abandonned Tiger, its hard to say. The Tigers in "Hummel" appeared to have been renumbered in the codes of the units they were operating with. They all seem to have had a hull cross at about the halfway mark too. Shots of them with 4.506 show them with fat "dark green" and white outline numbers - according to Schneider on p.3 of "TIC 2". They were 4.Kp. prefixed, 3 digit numbers (eg. "411"). But later when "Hummel" was with Pz.Bgd.106 they wore rough r&w? 1 Kp. prefixes (eg. "111"). Whether they would have had the numbers on the rear turret bins too is also unknown. But seeing as they'd only left 506 a matter of days before (5-10 depending on which dates you believe), and this is the only known shot of them while with Pz.Rgt.33 of 9.Pz., who knows if they would still have retained the 4.Kp. codes or have been remarked already? Sadly the angle in this shot which is the only known one of it just isn't enough to get a clear look at the turret side, but as a guess it almost looks to me like its just solid black "11"? Of interest too is the unusual sheet metal rain guard over the mantlet. According to Schneider as the unit was formed from the training schools at Paderborn and were a mish-mash of models sourced from repairs and a variety of previous units, the paint jobs and cam schemes varied considerably too but a form of 3 col. would obviously be safest. (The one seen KO'd near Bastogne around Xmas '44 with its mantlet sleeve blown down the barrel is a very odd beast - an early retro-fitted with steel wheels - a'la Tigergruppe Fehrmann of "KG Schulze"). The one you are inquiring about though is just a standard Late. Anyway hope all this is of some use... JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted December 10, 2000 Share Posted December 10, 2000 John, can you tell me what the commander of that Pershing nicknamed "Fireball" ate on the day his tank was knocked out? That seems to be the only piece of missing information you have on that particular unit. Just joshing with ya... truly your research is incredibly detailed. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasd Posted December 10, 2000 Share Posted December 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The round penetrated the lower hull and went between the driver's legs... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch! [This message has been edited by chasd (edited 12-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conall Posted December 10, 2000 Share Posted December 10, 2000 Just to add the British dimension to the topic, from the same discussion on AFV News. The Comet saw as much action as the Pershing. 11th Armoured Division was re-equipped with the Comet in December 1944 (equates to 226 tanks). Most of the action they saw was after March 1945, where they appeared to have performed well despite a propensity for bogging (mainly due to too much power being transmitted through the tracks - 18.1 Hp/t & 13.8psi - compared to the Sherman M4A3E8 12.1 Hp/t & 11.0psi). The Comet saw action against most types of German MBT - see W. Schneider Tigers in Combat II pp. 403 - 408, also Major Bill Close MC A View from the Turret pp. 158 - 160. Most casualties appear to have been from Panzerfausts. The incident in Schnieder's "Tigers in Combat II" mentions two Comets being KO'd by a Tiger from Gruppe Fehrmann on the 12th April 1945 & that Tiger in return being Ko'd by a Comet on the 13th April 1945. Another Tiger from Panzerdivision Clauswitz KO'd two tanks from 3RTR (part of 11th Armoured Div) on the 1st May 1945 & was then KO'd in return - the British tanks were almost certainly Comets. A source for Comet crew casualty data was a Medical Research Council Team Report quoted in ORS Report No. 33 "The Use of Panzerfaust In the N.W. European Campaign." The timeline of the study was "namely the armoured attacks after crossing the Rhine." The study counted penetrations without stating if any of the cases were of multiple penetrations. The number of penetrations was: Comet 14 HC, 12 AP From this you can extrapolate that from this report a maximum of 26 Comets were KO'd between March & May - a figure around 20 is more plausible if you count multiple penetrations. Assuming the sample didn't include every Comet KO'd then a figure between 20 & 40 seems likely. Vague but that's the best I can do. The following quote from the Regimental History of the 23rd Hussars (11th Armoured Div) indicates why the Comet was well liked by it's crews: "We were very glad to be in our Comets for their armour proved far tougher than that of a Sherman, which was not always penetrated by a bazooka but usually caught fire as well. The Comets were much safer. very frequently the bazooka did not go throughthe armour at all, particularly if it hit the track plates which we had hung on the turret. But sometimes it did go through, and caused casualties. It was a weapon which had to be taken very seriously." pp. 207-208 Hope this helps. Best regards, Conall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted December 10, 2000 Share Posted December 10, 2000 Good stuff Tom. Slightly off topic…regarding WWII tank gunnery, I get the impression that AORS4(a) and AORS4( may contain a fair bit of information regarding both optics and accuracy in general. Any thoughts on where these studies might be obtained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts