Of artillery, the AI, and other things

[caralampio]

I've been playing intensively in the last days, and some things have come to mind about CM which I would like to ask about.

1.-Following the recommendation in the manual, I try to do what might work in the real world. One such thing is shelling areas where I suspect the enemy might be. However, I've noticed that even after intensive and extensive shelling, the enemies that pop up in the beaten and cratered area seem to be unscathed. So the question: Are hidden units affected by artillery before they appear on the mapboard?

2.-Is the AI honest? For example, when playing with full fog-of-war all you see of enemy units until you get real close is that "Infantry?" label. Does the AI act as if the human player's units are labeled only "Infantry?" too until real close? I've noticed that the computer always goes for the most valuable units regardless of circumstances, for instance if I send a squad running in the open in front of an enemy MG and at the same time have my all-important spotter crawling in tall pines, guess which unit will be dead at the end of the turn? The spotter of course. Another example: I have some trucks I don't need, so I send them out of harm's way, behind a hill, in trees (scattered, but they help some, no?) hiding (not very effective for vehicles, but it helps some, no?) I'm quite sure no LOS exists to anywhere in the mapboard. (Furthermore later in the scenario I discovered all of the AI's spotters and not one of them had a LOS to my trucks.) My trucks get hit by artillery of "surgical strike" accuracy. Just one turn, all that was needed, right on top of the vehicles...

3.-From reading history books and other wargames, I was under the impression that bocage was pretty impressive defensive terrain. However, I've noticed that when I place my units in bocage they are as vulnerable as if they were in the open. Is bocage a good choice to place units?

Caralampio

[Terence]

Ahh, I see how you could be confused. You are not, in fact, experiencing any of these things that you mention...

1) The units are scathed by your artillery. Its just that with nobody there to observe them, you can't tell for sure. Fog of War: when a shell falls in the forest, you can't see the bodies bounce.

2) The AI will shoot at the most valuable units it can see. Clearly it spotted your spotter before your spotter spotted cover.

Tall pines are not great to hide in, btw. Try it some time. Think about it -- under the same circs, wouldn't YOU shoot at the spotter?

3) The trucks. Hmm, this one is tricky. the only thing I can think of is that trucks are hard to hide and that the AI did see where they were going.

4) Try placing your units immediately BEHIND bocage instead of on it. That might work better.

[Guest Mikey D]

I've shelled suspected areas myself. One hint of damage being done is sometimes a brief glimpse of one or two paniced squads escaping into the rear. At the finish of the scenario try going back to the map before quitting. All the hidden forces will be in view then and you can check for bodies in the woods.

[Subvet]

Terence I agree with most of what you said. But one thing stood out that I have to ask you about. You said "Tall pines are not great to hide in, btw. Try it some time." Why aren't tall pines good to hide in??? The manual says: "Tall pines represent dense woods terrain with thick underbrush and bushes, and provide cover and concealment similar to woods, except that the pines are taller and so are more likely to block elevated lines of sight..." Under "woods" it says: "Woods provide good cover and concealment."

What do you know that I should?

[Pak40]

1)what Terence said.

2) I think I can explain this a bit better. The enemy AI adheres to the same spotting rules like humans do. In the case of your spotter, either the AI discovered the true identity of your spotter or by chance decided to take a few shots at an "infantry" unit and got lucky. In my experience if a spotter is sneaking or crawling in the woods then he wont be seen(enemy being at least 100m away). But you can't have him sneaking and crawling around within LOS for too long, otherwise he will be spotted.

The Truck situation: This was either by chance or the AI heard the trucks or saw them near there. Maybe it even had a TRP but that's unlikely. Anyway, better on your trucks than on your infantry.

3) I've also had a tough time defending in th e bocage, I'm not really sure how much cover or protection it provides. But, I'd bet that infantry in foxholes placed in the bocage is a tough defense. I think that's really what the bocage became infamous for: dug in infantry.

[Lepton]

I've had the same feeling about the AI going after my spotters. I've noticed, however, that the AI often engages any moving target if it can. The two men in a spotter group can not absorb much punishment, so if they are unlucky enough to get caught by an MG, they are often toast in one round.

The trucks bit is really pretty easy. Spotters do not need LOS to a target to call down arty. I've done the same thing myself if I see several enemy mech units that have withdrawn behind woods or buildings. The arty is not as accurate, but still has a good chance of nailing trucks or halftracks. One thing, though, is that the AI doesn't "forget" units. As soon as the shells start falling, the AI will bug out for some place safer. You can do the same thing, but I tend to park the trucks and forget them, so it's not until later that I notice they've been toasted by a barrage. On the other hand, all those shells did not land on something important!

Finally, bocage is just dense hedges, so it does not provide super cover, but does provide great concealment. It also makes movement across the bocage difficult or impossible. Infantry dug in just behind bocage can not be seen until you are on top of them. This is almost always bad for the attacker and good for the defender. The bocage country got it's reputation more for the fierce, short range, defender preferred fights that occured in that terrain.

[Vanir]

I'm not sure what the exact defensive bonus for bocage is, but as someone else above pointed out you must have the bocage between you and the enemy for it to work at all. Do not put them directly in the bocage. Your unit can be up to 15 meters away from the bocage and still get the effect as long as it's between him and the guy shooting at him (same goes for walls).

Yes, the AI is honest. It doesn't know anything a human player in the same situation would not. Actually, it knows less because the AI suffers from long term memory loss and will completely forget a unit of yours exists soon after it loses sight of it.

And arty definitely does affect units that you can't see.

------------------

You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 12-07-2000).]

[Dittohead]

What size artillery are you using. 76mm or 81mm mortars are best used to suppress dug in troops esp if they are vets.

Use the bigger stuff if you want casualties

[Olle Petersson]

Regarding point 1:

I've been on the receiving end of arty (3" mortars), with my troops hiding in foxholes in woods.

A couple of turns shelling didn't cause many casualties. It did suppress my troops though, from which they quickly recovered once the shelling stopped.

In your case it's also possible that there were no troops to start with, but they marched in after your barrage had lifted.

Cheers

Olle

[Terence]

Originally posted by Subvet:

You said "Tall pines are not great to hide in, btw. Try it some time." Why aren't tall pines good to hide in??? The manual says: "Tall pines represent dense woods terrain with thick underbrush and bushes, and provide cover and concealment similar to woods, except that the pines are taller and so are more likely to block elevated lines of sight..."

oops. you are right. I was half baked on this one.

I confused the tall pines in CM with something totally different --the larch, to be precise.

Sorry for the confusion. I have noticed, though, that if you are moving or shooting, its hard to stay concealed, esp. if the enemy is close and looking for targets.

[This message has been edited by Terence (edited 12-07-2000).]