Would it be possible for me to get the game before next Friday? And bridge question.

[Maximus]

I'm going on a over-nighter or two trip next Friday and it would be nice if I could take the manual with me and have something to read.

And the bridge question...

What types of bridges are in CM? OK, so far we've seen the one in LD, and the one in the Jagdpanther POTD from the other day. Are there Arnhem-type or Remagan-type bridges as well?

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"The greatest risk...is not taking one."

[Commissar]

CM has some battles from Monty's Huge Screw UP (aka Operation Market Garden)so those wonderful bridges should be in there.

[thomasj]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Commissar:

CM has some battles from Monty's Huge Screw UP (aka Operation Market Garden)so those wonderful bridges should be in there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Monty's screw up!? He said it was 90% succesful though!

I mean only 8,000 of the 10,000 were killed in Arnhem of the British 1st Airborn Division. Could have been worse according to Monty's staff.

Thank God my grandfathers did not server in the british army.

[windstarz]

Monty might have learned "acceptable" losses from Haig who should have been nicknamed meatgrinder in WW1.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Commissar:

CM has some battles from Monty's Huge Screw UP (aka Operation Market Garden)so those wonderful bridges should be in there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here we go again. Never let it be said that the facts can get in the way of people's opinions. May I respectfully refer you and everybody holding a similar opinion to the excellent discussion of generalship in the following thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/005402.html

But be careful, you might learn something and maybe start thinking in grays instead of B&W only. The horror, the horror.

Please note that all smilies on this iMac have been cuelly mistreated and then buried in a mass grave close to Coventry.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[dalem]

I didn't post on the other Monty thread so I don't feel like I'm doubling up here....

Trust me when I say that, based on my readings, I do not have much respect for General B.L. Montgomery's skills and record as an Army Commander, for all the reasons that are obvious.

HOWEVER...

My advice to those so quick to judge Market Garden is that one should never consider any action or battle in a vacuum: understand the context of the plan, and weigh the risks against the benefits of success.

I have no doubt that, had Market Garden succeeded, which it could have, Monty would now be known as a great commander whose dash and boldness led to ultimate victory over the Reich. (Assuming 21st Army Group could have held the spearpoint into the Ruhr open against German resistance, which in itself is doubtful.)

Of course we know that it didn't work out that way, but that doesn't give us the right, in my opinion, to dismiss the concept out of hand.

Anyway, just thought that needed to be said here.

-dale

[Commissar]

p

[This message has been edited by Commissar (edited 06-09-2000).]

[Dar]

I have to agree with you, Commissar. With Market Garden, it was all or nothing. Either all the bridges were seized and XXX Corps linked up with the airborne troops, or it was all for naught. Anything less was a failure, and, unfortunately, that's what it turned out to be.

Back to the original question, though: Can I get my copy by next Friday, too?! Please? Pretty please?

Dar

[Guest Big Time Software]

First, I'll just chip in my 2 cents worth about Market Garden as a whole. Since it was designed to end the war more quickly, negating the need for a long slug fest through the winter, it can absolutely be called a failure. The extreme epxense of highly trained men and the huge effort to drop/supply them makes it a dismal failure in my opinion. And although Monty came up with the idea, Ike and the rest of SHAEF are not without blame. So let us just stop there

There are three types of bridges in CM:

1. Wooden Bridge

2. Stone Bridge

3. Tall Stone Bridge

#3 is what you would use for the likes of Arnhem or Remagen. No, it doesn't look anything like either of those bridges, but it isn't possible for us to code up unique bridge graphics for individual bridges. In other words, we had to keep it generic.

As for delivery on Friday of next week... I honestly have NO idea. It all depends on when we get the manuals back from the printer, how long it takes to process the orders, and the length of time to get from our warehouse to the front door. I'd put the odds at about 50/50 right now based on if the manuals show up on Monday. If not, chances are near zero.

Steve

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

As for delivery on Friday of next week... I honestly have NO idea. It all depends on when we get the manuals back from the printer, how long it takes to process the orders, and the length of time to get from our warehouse to the front door. I'd put the odds at about 50/50 right now based on if the manuals show up on Monday. If not, chances are near zero.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Old Blood & Maximus has repeatedly admitted on this forum that he was an unbeliever and only pre-ordered in January. I think it is a bit cheeky of him to now ask for express delivery. "Get back in the queue!" is what the huddled masses of those of us who preordered earlier shout at him.

Please note that all smilies on this iMac were departed to Gruinard Island.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Guest Offwhite]

BTS said: There are three types of bridges in CM:

1. Wooden Bridge

2. Stone Bridge

3. Tall Stone Bridge

#3 is what you would use for the likes of Arnhem or Remagen. No, it doesn't look anything like either of those bridges, but it isn't possible for us to code up unique bridge graphics for individual bridges. In other words, we had to keep it generic.

Is this hard-coded then? If not, it would be a welcome addition to one of the Mad Dog mods (you listening, guys? ). Even though the LOS and structural characteristics would remain the same, having the steel-girder look would be appreciated by the purists, I'm sure.

arg, darn elusive code tags!

[This message has been edited by Offwhite (edited 06-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Offwhite (edited 06-09-2000).]

[Pak40]

Steve,

who's your printer? I may just have to give them a little motivational call this weekend explaining how hundreds of irate CM players will be hounding them for the next several months if the manuals are not delivered on time.

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Old Blood & Maximus has repeatedly admitted on this forum that he was an unbeliever and only pre-ordered in January. I think it is a bit cheeky of him to now ask for express delivery. "Get back in the queue!" is what the huddled masses of those of us who preordered earlier shout at him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, now, Andreas. I ordered the day after I downloaded the Beta Demo. I downloaded it late one night and then installed it and played it the next day. I was instantly hooked, so I ordered then. When I first ran across CM last fall, it was still in Alpha and I'll be honest. I was not impressed. Then one night, early this January I clicked on one of those "Battalion is ready. Are you?" banners and low and behold the Beta Demo was available. I've already stated what I did next.

At least I wasn't like some people on here, meaning being veteran members to the board and still had not pre-ordered up until a few weeks ago. I was sold as soon as I played the Beta Demo.

All smiles on this PC were executed while trying to sneak on the screen.

But anyway, thanks Steve for clearing up the bridge question. I asked that because I have some scenarios in mind that I could create.

How tall is the "tall stone bridge"? How many elevation changes is there between the top and bottom?

OK, now just a short snippet on Market Garden and Monty. I believe the biggest contributor to the failure of capturing the Arnhem bridge was that XXX Corps slacked-ass around while the US, British, and Polish Airborne units were fighting for their survival in their respective drop zones and fields of operation. I mean how long can armor-less airborne infantry hold out against Panzer units?

That really sums it up. The "Garden" contingement of the Operation failed to complete their mission. It seems like there was a lot of waiting between the time the Airborne units completed their assignment and the arrival of XXX Corps.

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"The greatest risk...is not taking one."

[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 06-09-2000).]

[Spook]

Just some trivial commentary on Market-Garden:

1) The number of dead in the British 1st Airborne was NOT 8,000, it was closer to 1,500. The remainder of the 8,000 losses were those captured by the Germans (of which the great bulk of these were wounded). That's still grievous losses for any one division in WW2, but I don't regard direct comparison to Haig & the Somme (WW1) as appropriate here.

2) Much can be made about the presence of the 9th/10th SS Panzer divisions messing up Market Garden, but between BOTH divisions at the start of the operation, the total number of men was 7,000. (Remember, the 2nd SS Panzerkorps was detailed there to rest & refit after being gutted in Normandy.) The presence of armor within these two divisions certainly helped for the Germans, but it needs to be added that much of the German manpower that mucked up Market Garden and repeatedly cut the highway of advance was troops from the 15th Army that escaped through the Scheldt.

3) It was this this repeated action of cutting the main highway of advance that slowed down 30th Corps; how far ahead can you get if the logistics isn't allowed to keep up consistently? Each time the highway was cut, the British armor often had to double back to re-open it (with the help of the US Airborne troops.) So while there occasions where the ground troops MIGHT'VE pressed a bit harder, I really don't think they slack-assed much at all.

4) I don't think anyone has commented earlier against this final point, but I want to make it all the same: whatever the lump sum of mistakes and by whom, it must still be recognized that the efforts of the Allied Airborne troops (especially 1st Airborne) were nothing short of epic.

After Col Frost (1st Airborne) was captured, he commented to a fellow captured trooper, "It looks like we didn't pull it off this time." The trooper's response was, "No, sir. But we sure gave them a damn hard run for their money."

[armorbuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

I'm going on a over-nighter or two trip next Friday and it would be nice if I could take the manual with me and have something to read.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well do you have a Barnes and Noble book store in the area? They have some fine books on the war, perhaps you could pick up one. Or try your local library. I am sure there is excellent literature for your reading pleasure there too and its free. Or how about going to one of the numerous department stores and check out the magazine stand?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Graphical mods for the bridge won't do much since the shape of the bridge itself is the issue, not the textures. All anybody can do is just alter the textures, which won't cut it.

As for the Arnhem op, it was doomed to failure before it even started. It was planned around wishfull thinking and optimal results, the margin of error was practical nil. XXX Corps' problems were in part due to poor senior level planning, which again Monty should not be blamed for exclusively. In short, it was a bad plan and because of that it was bound to fail for one reason or another. And for that reason alone SHAEF deserves a huge heaping of responsibility for the failure, much more so than any commander on the ground.

Steve

[Commissar]

Whoa, looks like somebody already read my post. I deleted it to avoid starting again what appears to be old wars over Monty. Oh, well. Agreed, the airbourne units did their jobs and then some, particularly the Brit 1st Airbourne. It's a bloody shame what ended up happening to them despite some amazing achievements.

After waiting for CM for so long, a 50/50 chance sounds great. Either way, CM is close to arriving. I convinced one of my friends into getting this game after my many e-mails of indoctrination on the superior qualities of CM over other "wargames". I also corrupted him enough to get into military history as well.

[This message has been edited by Commissar (edited 06-09-2000).]

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

As for the Arnhem op, it was doomed to failure before it even started. It was planned around wishfull thinking and optimal results, the margin of error was practical nil. XXX Corps' problems were in part due to poor senior level planning, which again Monty should not be blamed for exclusively. In short, it was a bad plan and because of that it was bound to fail for one reason or another. And for that reason alone SHAEF deserves a huge heaping of responsibility for the failure, much more so than any commander on the ground.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno if I can agree with the implication to that statement, Steve. (I'm quite the anal bastard to keep up the Market-Garden side-topic, aren't I? )

It was posed by SHAEF for the Aug/Sep '44 period that the "First Airborne Army" was available for an operation to support the Allies' advance. The thing was, the Allies in late August kept advancing fast enough to scrub several "contingent" drop operations, like "Comet." But Market's inception and objectives were made by Montgomery himself.

When he pressed Ike for support of the plan, Monty got it. Ike allowed supply priority to be maintained to 21st Army Group to help Market-Garden, but all of the Allied armies had already stretched themselves out in their logistical tails. (This is why Ike was VERY keen to get Antwerp's docks operating ASAP.) SHAEF's responsibility was to get the airborne troops organized for the flyover and drops, to get air support to cover the drops, and to get what few supplies were available on the ground to keep coming to the "Garden" attack force. On all counts, SHAEF held up its end.

The one area where it fell apart under SHAEF's higher control was that airdrop reinforcement and resupply fell off way behind schedule, but this was primarily due to the resupply planes being grounded by bad weather. One indicator of SHAEF's support is that US Eighth AAF flew more than half of the sorties in support of Market-Garden, when Eighth's normal mission was to maintain the strategic bombing of Germany.

In reciprocation, SHAEF wasn't informed by Monty of Market-Garden's developments for several days after things started to fall apart. I suppose that the failing of SHAEF here was being too permissive to Monty on staying informed.

Well, as noted by you and others, there was blame to go all around, but I really don't think that a HUGE portion of it goes to the SHAEF level by any level of measurement.