muzzlehead Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 Well this may have been discussed in the past but I could find no reference to it. I have a question concerning the time that it takes to emplace (unlimber) and CSMO (close order march station: limber) a M2a1 USA 105mm arty piece in CM. In order to unlimber the 105 in CM it takes typically 4 min. My actual “hands on experience” with a competent gun crew and this weapon system during emplacement, in combat operations without orientating to an aiming circle, is approx. 1 minute. In training we use to run “stop watch” exercise from the moment the truck stopped to the moment the first direct fire round was launched and it was typically 45 to 60 seconds. In combat we were faster, adrenaline and disregard for safety restrictions are great speed facilitators. What is the theory behind such a long emplacement time? Is it due to off loading all the rounds from the truck prior to firing? It appears that the rounds move with the gun. I would suggest requiring the truck to spend 4 min in the POS rather than restricting unlimbering to 4min. A gun crew would fire “from the truck” as soon as targets appeared rather than waste time “unloading rounds” before engaging targets. If the truck drove off due to “incoming” or was destroyed than a portion of the rounds should be calculated “offloaded” in relation to the time the truck spent in POS. On the flip side CSMO in CM is too fast. It typically took two min to get out of a position with all of our gear. Now we could have beat feet in less than a min but that would have meant leaving aiming posts and such out. I can concede that if the gun is only intending to fire direct fire missions that most gear would never leave the truck. Yet this does not account the typical 50 round combat load portrayed in CM as having been off loaded in the POS. Each 105mm round comes packaged in a two round “box”. As it is presently modeled in CM the 25 60 lbs. boxes magically floating back on the truck. Some of my CM brethren may think this is beyond the scope of CM and issues raised above are not possible to model with the current code. You may be right concerning the code, I have no idea how CM code works but the current unlimbering rate is too slow to model the effective close support possibilities that the M2a1 weapon system can provide.. It may be impossible to track the number of rounds off loaded each turn between the truck and gun (though a similar system is in place with schrecks/zookers when casualties are taken). Be it as it may I would suggest the following refinement of the limber and unlimber process. I suggest reducing unlimbering to 2 minutes as a trade off between counting rounds and allowing the crew to react proactively to targets as they appear. Also the limbering time should be increased from 1 minute (really it is instantly) to at least 2 min, unless a reduction of rounds is accrued by the gun. The M2A1 is a powerful little weapon and has been in active service since WWII through Desert Storm(I do not know if it is still currently employed). Regardless if the limber/unlimber issue can or should be addressed in CM, this game is still the best PC/MAC tactical simulation I have experienced. My wife still curses the day Steve and Charles sketched CM ideas out on bar napkins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 I agree with MH . It seems that the unlimber times imply setting everything up, which is not usually necessary in DF situations. Because on-map guns can't shoot IF anyway, DF is all they can do. Thus, IMHO this issue needs to be addressed. But in the DF-only world of CM guns, you also don't have to put as much back on the truck, so maybe increasing limbering times isn't really called for. Of course, some guns would have faster times than others. So probably this would have to be addressed on a gun-by-gun basis. Also, some guns (88mm FLAK) could be fired limbered but only in VERY limited arcs. This might be a factor in whatever version of CM does the desert war. On this subject of limbering under fire, however, I have a rather large complaint. This complaint is that I usually can't do it because the damn towing vehicle lacks all physical attributes of manhood. This is because the guns are DF-only, which means they only reveal themselves when in enemy LOS. Then they have to leave before the big hammers start falling. But when you try to bring the towing vehicle up to the gun, it sees enemies out there and runs away, leaving the gun to its fate. Thus, I hope BTS addresses the panic response of towing vehicles. Their current behavior leads to excessive gun losses. ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 While I haven't any intimate knowledge of limbering, or unlimbering (attaching trailers to cars excluded), I'd would have to agree that if experience shows that a certain algorithm in CM is not producing real-life results, then an opportunity exists to improve it. Btw, I'm also impressed. Not only are these two gentlemen sharing their intimate knowledge of the King/Queen/whatever of the battlefield with the rest of us (both being involved directly or indirectly with artillery during the gulf war), but not once did MH use the words 'Mace' and 'Frilly blouse'in his entire discourse! Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>King/Queen/whatever of the battlefield<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Us cannoncockers prefer the term "God of War" ------------------ -Bullethead Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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