Cpt B M Deleted Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 It's been more than 50 years ago since America went to war with Germany. My question is, how do Germans feel about the whole conflict? What do they think? Do some their elders still hold anti-American sediment and pro-nazi ideals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 How about that Anti-American "sediment", OBG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Just don't mention the war! ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Capt. Manieri - Just travel to germany and ask some skin heads for their opinion. I am sure they will explain their views in detail. (I am not saying that all/most germans have same view as skinheads - I am just having fun as CaptManieri expense) [This message has been edited by killmore (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerShark Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Sorry, but should these questions really be answered? I mean how do you feel about the war in the USA between settlers and Native Americans. How do i (dutch) feel about the things "us dutch" did to all our colonies? Strange question and if you read some news-papers you know how people think about certain ideas. And although your statement is correct it would like to say the world was in one big crazy war. Sorry, but i kinda dislike the entire "us americans" against "the Axis". Reminds me of some bad pro-american "we are the best" war movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOne Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 I'm US so I won't presume to speak for the German people but I have some friends in Germany and their feeling is that the sons and grandsons feel that they are unjustly (in subtle and not so subtle ways) being held responsible for the actions and participation of the fathers and grandfathers. They have expressed on the one hand, a sense of pervading collective guilt for the atrocities that were committed and on the other hand realize that their generations had no more to do with it than anyone else that wasn't "of age" during the war. Again these are the comments of only a couple of German citizens so it doesn't necessarily represent a consensus. I would be interested in hearing more about this from CM fans in Germany as an interesting and informative dialogue. Ghost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerShark Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Ghost, you are right about the part that the youth in Germany feels that way (i am ofcourse also speaking about my German friends and not about the entire population). I do think however that this thread is not very interesting. Especially the part about ***Do some their elders still hold anti-American sediment and pro-nazi ideals? *** This will just result in flames and is NOT informative at all. It's just starting a riot. As i mentioned before, when people follow the news and read newspapers/books, they know very well what is going on in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOne Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Panzershark....I agree that if this is not done in the right spirit it could evolve into a less that desirable thread and that is certainly not acceptable. My position is that it would be interesting to UNDERSTAND how people feel about various aspects of this tremendous conflict after 50+ years. It would be interesting to get different current cultural perspectives from people from any country that was involved. Perhaps if the thread had been worded differently it might have resulted in a more positive impression about where this could potentially go. Ghost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PanzerShark: As i mentioned before, when people follow the news and read newspapers/books, they know very well what is going on in this world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> PanzerShark, I am sorry but I don't agree. I think it is very good and inquisitive of Cpt.M. to inquire, shows that he is actually interested in getting first-hand opinions instead of somebody else's view of those firs-hand opinions. And that is what newspapers and books are, after all. Nothing wrong with a bit of qualitative research, even if it is OT. I have not lived in Germany for the better part of 5 years, but I would say GhostOne is right on the money here. I think that we should never forget what happened and what kind of atrocities were committed by the generation of my grand-father (and yes, I know other countries have their own skeletons, but that is something for them to deal with). At the same time, I don't feel guilty about it. It was not me, even my father was not born then, and as long as we make sure it is not forgotten and it does not happen again, I don't have a problem about it. I was very lucky that my family relations in that time were not involved in any of the Nazi organisations, so it is easy for me to say that and be cool about it. Hope that makes sense. Some of the high points in political culture in post-war Germany have been the speeches on the 8th of May. E.g. the one the then Federal President von Weizsäcker gave. He was a young Lieutenant during the war, and after the war defended his father, the German ambassador to the Vatican in a war crimes trial. As the saying goes, those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. ------------------ Andreas Edited for ineptness in applying HTML code [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 I suspect a lot of Germans did not agree with Hitler's fanaticism, esp. since he weasled his way into power and his brown shirts frightened opposition. There is a congressman or senator in the U.S. who survived an extermination camp, he is a very interesting fellow to listen to. It's easy to blame a generation I think, but remember most people are interested in "fitting in" and it takes an awful lot of courage to step forward and point fingers at people who are in power. Of course dictatorships use this, reinforce it even by rewarding people who are afraid of them and so do what they want. After a few years of this people don't remember how they got caught up in the domineering side, also it is very difficult for them to quit after they are in, they would become examples for the others in the group. A couple of years ago there was a brouhaha about Austria, maybe the press exaggerated I don't know, but things don't seem to have quietened down there much. There was a piece on 60 minutes as well, there is a woman from Austria who spent all her life showing the other people in her town how they were honoring people who committed atrocities, and so on. So although people don't want to talk about it and try to bury the past, the threads are still there in the background. I would argue they are not as strong as they were in the 20s and 30s, perhaps because economics are better now. Just more rambling and first impressions from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 1. "Do some their elders still hold anti-American sediment " Where could I find this anti-American sediment? Would it be primarily found on the banks of Soviet and Vietnamese ( i.e. Communist) rivers or do some "underground" rivers in America also provide anti-American sediment? 2. I think most Germans realise that what their grandparents did has nothing much to do with them but I DO think that they still feel a little too guilty about the war.. They seem to have a hard time separating the war from the deathcamps.. The two were entirely separate things insofar as death camps had been up and running long before the war began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: How about that Anti-American "sediment", OBG? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What are you talking about? ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: 2. I think most Germans realise that what their grandparents did has nothing much to do with them but I DO think that they still feel a little too guilty about the war.. They seem to have a hard time separating the war from the deathcamps.. The two were entirely separate things insofar as death camps had been up and running long before the war began.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Fionn, I know we both won't agree on this, but there was a former Social Security Minister in the previous, conservative German government who once pointed out that soldiers fighting to defend Germany also fought (albeit unknowingly in many cases) to prolong the misery in the death camps, and helped to prop up a criminal regime. To suggest the war and the death camps were entirely unconnected goes a bit too far, I should think. After all, the worst camps were in Poland. And only the war made it possible to include Jews from occupied nations into the Holocaust. ------------------ Andreas Edited for tiredness... [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 OB&G: I was simply making a joke about the misspeeled word and your tendency to jump on it. (Actually, it's spelled correctly, just the wrong one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: What are you talking about? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Aboot yer Kampain do shdamb oud mishbelingsh o shish bored - ve shee shrough yu!!!!! ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 I think a thing to be noted is that every country that Germany attacked started their own war of aggression against unwilling countries. War is no stranger to any nation. It was the extra things that the Nazi's were doing that sticks in peoples minds when talking about WW2. As far as I'm concerned Germans dont have to feel guilty of the war. They SHOULD have some shame upon them how SOME of that generation acted. A lot of Germans did'nt want to be at war but were subject to their goverments will, just like Americans have been many times over. From what I understand it is difficult to find a television show in Germany that objectively shows their war effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCrawler Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von shrad: I think a thing to be noted is that every country that Germany attacked started their own war of aggression against unwilling countries. War is no stranger to any nation. It was the extra things that the Nazi's were doing that sticks in peoples minds when talking about WW2. As far as I'm concerned Germans dont have to feel guilty of the war. They SHOULD have some shame upon them how SOME of that generation acted. A lot of Germans did'nt want to be at war but were subject to their goverments will, just like Americans have been many times over. From what I understand it is difficult to find a television show in Germany that objectively shows their war effort. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> By your line of reasoning, I guess I should feel shame because my ancestors owned slaves in the old South here in USA. Well, I don't and I don't think that ANY younger German should feel shame for the supposed 'crimes' of their ancestors. This is liberal, feel-good crap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Capt. M I never heard any German elders saying ever anything against Americans because "America went to war with Germany". They might have had some anti-American feelings because of what happened after the war. As example: GI's taking German women back home... But most looked down upon were these German women not the GI's. Not really anti-American, happened with other nationalities and on different places as well. Always does if one looses a war and is ruled by another nation(s). What definitely still is there among some of the older generation are the "pro-nazi ideals". Maybe not in a way that they still do believe in these ideals but that these ideals are still in their mind because they heard it often and for a long time. Here an example: My grandfather was in the German military 30-45 (no officer), never a member of the party. When my cousin was born, my aunt wanted to name her "Sahra". My grandfather jumped out of his chair and shouted:"never, that's a jewish name"! Again, he was no nazi, he was no racist (lot's of turkish people in the neigbourhood he alway respected) but this "jewish-thing" stayed in his mind. In a way he surely believed in the nazi's before the war. He had lost his job and could make a living as a pro-soldier in the army. Live was getting better. But then, he (and lots of other Germans too, I think) realized that Adolf and his guys weren't really good news. This is reflected in some of his thoughts about the war and politics he told me years ago, before he died. "Don't believe in politics; politics is nothing but lies, and it doesn't matter if it's left or right." "Don't believe in these stories about "honour" and war. War is just about you or me... After the war, being an experienced soldier, he was asked to help to rebuild the new "Bundesweer", but he refused. No more military, no more politics, 'til he died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G4A Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 NCrawler, of course you don't have to feel shame for what someone else has done, but referring to the actions of nazis as "supposed 'crimes'" is another thing. But who cares, anything you don't like is "liberal" anyway, so why bother thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von shrad: From what I understand it is difficult to find a television show in Germany that objectively shows their war effort. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Two comments - first what is objective, if you always have to remember that the war effort did not happen in a vacuum. There is no absolute truth out there, that we all could agree on. A lot of this is a question of personal moral standards and of involvement with what happened. A friend of mine can be very aggressive about these questions, and strongly insists that what happened during the 12-years of Nazism has nothing to do with her. Most of her family, academics by background, were reasonably committed Nazis during the war, and her grandfather never completely shook the sentiment off. My family was (to my knowledge) not involved, except for my grandfather who was a lowly corporal in the artillery. My great-grandfather was even locked up by the Nazis for being a Social-Democrat City Council Member in Jülich. Obviously that makes it easier for me than for her to address these matters. Apart from that, what I find very galling in the history of west Germany after the war is the failure to deal with Nazism adequately. University professors, judges, civil servants were just let off. I believe that at its inception the Federal Republic made a huge mistake in not dealing more forcefully with the higher level of Nazism. At the same time, politicians who had kept their integrity like Willy Brandt were vilified as traitors by some (he had fled to Norway and worked in the resistance there, IIRC). I had heated discussions about that in the mid-1980s with some Waffen-SS veteran. It seems I never learn to shut up... So in closing, I do not have a problem with people making 'wrong' choices when the choices are hard ones to make. I don't think that accusations are the right way forward. At the same time I do not think that the famous excuse "What was right then can not be wrong now" holds any water. And I do have a problem with the refusal to address these. And a lot of post-war German history is about this refusal. Sorry for the ramble, but this topic was one of the things that kindled my interest in politics a long time ago. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Yes, I think that the population of Germany today should just get over the guilt of the Nazi Party. As NCrawler suggested, today's Americans don't feel guilty of the Confederate government. What it all boils down to is that all of this is a part of history. Things change and you have to move on. I'm sure today's population of Italy doesn't begrudge the ancient Roman Emipre's trodgeries. Actually what I fear is that modern Germany forgets what happened and 10, 20, 30 years from now, the Neo-Nazi Party takes over the country and starts all of this bull**** all over again. As most historians say, "For those who forget History, are doomed to repeat it." ------------------ "I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NCrawler: I don't think that ANY younger German should feel shame for the supposed 'crimes' of their ancestors. This is liberal, feel-good crap...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well thank you, but first of all I would be very interested in what these supposed 'crimes' were, as opposed to the real ones. That was a rhethorical question, BTW. Secondly, I think that we can make up our own minds about this, after all I am not passing judgement about what I think the appropriate feelings of the English for the Opium War, or the Southerners for slavery ought to be. And I can tell you that I would feel shame if my grand-father had been an SS guard in a "supposed" death camp. In that vein, I just realised that so far only two Germans have replied to this thread amongst a lot of foreigners. Just wondering whether that means my compatriots are all asleep, not interested or find this a difficult topic to address. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 NCrawler I assure you that I am no Liberal! Yet I do feel shame for what our country did to Native Americans and others just as I feel proud of our countries accomplishments. I am also sorry that this country ever brought slaves to America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> soldiers fighting to defend Germany also fought (albeit unknowingly in many cases) to prolong the misery in the death camps, and helped to prop up a criminal regime. To suggest the war and the death camps were entirely unconnected goes a bit too far, I should think. After all, the worst camps were in Poland. And only the war made it possible to include Jews from occupied nations into the Holocaust. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> American soldiers ALSO fought for a government which interred its own citizens (forcibly) in concentration camps. The American government interred many thousands of Japanese during WW2. Prior to WW2 it interred ( effectively) native Americans. Anyways I wholeheartedly disagree with blaming the fighting soldier for the crimes of his government ( unless he ACTIVELY and FULLY participates in such crimes). Americans in Vietnam undertook torture and the murder of countless innocent Vietnamese in an attempt to rout out Viet Cong sympathisers. By your rationale EVERY US soldier should feel ashamed of what they did there. That's utter crap IMO. Blame people for what THEY did not what others in the rear echelons or other units did. If you went to war to defend my country and family against an aggressor and returned home to find out that members of that ethnic group or country living in your country had been rounded up into concentration camps in which many had died would YOU say you were responsible for their deaths even though the first you found out about it was when you came home? I'd hope you wouldn't since, if you did then you'd probably end up killing yourself after blaming yourself for anything and everything which ever went wrong with the world. As for the war and deathcamps. Deathcamps were created prior to the war. Deathcamps WERE used to kill gypsies and jews ( and others) in captured territories BUT common German soldiers didn't capture these territories with the aim of sending these guys back to deathcamps. They captured the territory cause they were good soldiers and followed orders. The higher ups were the ones who made the decisions to ship people off to be shot or gassed or experimented on. Saying that because Jews from captured territories were shipped off to be killed the troops who captured those territories in the course of proper military campaigns are war criminals is just ludicrous IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 In a similar thought. America today could fill many divisions of troops ready to commit genocide on a givin race, IMO. We are no different. [This message has been edited by von shrad (edited 06-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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