Not enough men are killed in CM

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dienekes:

Yes I know of Monte Cassino and they weren't being hit by block buster 14 inch rounds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...Which pack about 100-150 lbs. of TNT as opposed to a 500 lb. bomb which packs ~300 lbs. of TNT or a 1,000 lb. bomb which packs ~700 lbs. of TNT. *That*, plus a continuous bombardment by artillery is what the defenders of Monte Cassino got hit with. And still the attacking forces had to dig them out one at a time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>These could launch king tigers 100 feet in the air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh really? With what consistency? And from what distance from the blast? Just what the hell are we talking about here?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thirty of these in a 10 second period should kill more than 70 men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know? You're speculating aren't you? On what grounds?

Or are you just hoping to find some über-weapon?

I suspect that you don't really know much about conditions during WW II. That's no crime; none of us did before we got down to studying it. But you shouldn't try to bluff. And you shouldn't be so disrespectful. Somebody here just might actually know what he's talking about.

In any event, welcome to the game and to the board. It's all for fun, so have a good time.

Michael

[Jeff Heidman]

<post deleted>

[This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 08-07-2000).]

[Spook]

Out of curiosity, Dienekes, what was the total manpower of the German battalion in your survey? How were they deployed?

A U.S. infantry battalion in WW2 had a standard allotment of 324 riflemen (not counting NCO's/officers, MG & mortar crews, etc.). So from your figures, it appears that only one barrage (with ten separate spotted gun units) was enough to "annihilate" the battalion with an average over 360 total casualties.

The only way that more men would show up as "killed" would be if repeat barrages onto locations with an eliminated unit would convert some of the "C" to "K". But this isn't likely done now, nor do I think it's appropriate to do.

One of the most significant "bombardment killings" on the West Front was the aerial bombing for Operation Cobra (which also killed over 100 US troops as "friendly fire" too). Over 1,000 Germans of the Panzer Lehr were killed in the carpet bombing. But although the strength of Panzer Lehr on July 25 eludes me for now, I think there were a lot more troops to Panzer Lehr than just 1,000, when you consider the total strength that includes the rear echelon.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

But although the strength of Panzer Lehr on July 25 eludes me for now, I think there were a lot more troops to Panzer Lehr than just 1,000, when you consider the total strength that includes the rear echelon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The actual effect of the bombardment was devastating not necessarily b/c of the numbers killed or wounded, but because of psychological effects (some men would go mad, commit suicide), because of the destruction to communications installations, tanks would not necessarily be destroyed but buried in the rubble, air intakes would choke with earth, it would be impossible to move in the area devastated (note, this is also a drawback for the attacker), so you can not bring your reserves up. Bayerlein (GOC Panzer Lehr, IIRC) claimed that his division was destroyed in the bombing. I guess that it is at least true if you consider it as a fighting unit capable of coherent reaction to enemy action.

You can find an account of this (one paragraph way down) here:

http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/Panzer%20Lehr/Panzer%20Lehr.htm

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Andreas

[Dienekes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

Out of curiosity, Dienekes, what was the total manpower of the German battalion in your survey? How were they deployed?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was 391 men in the battalion. The men were jammed into 5 buildings. I also tested putting the men on concrete with no cover resulting in 391 casualties (everyone) and 78 wounded. If you want I can email you the scenario.

[Dienekes]

Let me clarify things for everyone.

I started this thread because I noticed that when tanks catastrophically exploded not everyone died. I saw no crew exit the tank. I’m sure everyone has seen this happen. So I started testing to see how CM models casualties. I wanted to see if CM actually figured out deaths by roughly dividing wounded by a factor of four or if there was a more complex method. I know that in modern conflicts and CM that at the end of the battle roughly 25% of the casualties are dead. Mannheim Tanker answered this for me by pointing out that the answer is in the manual.

I have checked out the weight of a 14” shell it is 1500 lbs of which 150 to 200 of it is a steel penetrator to punch through a ships plate. However I couldn’t find the HE weight.

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WNUS_14-50_mk11.htm

As for the king tiger getting tossed I just recently read that in a book. Which book? I can’t remember, possibly Steel Inferno by Michael Reynolds.

quote:

Thirty of these in a 10 second period should kill more than 70 men.

Michael Emrys wrote:

How do you know? You're speculating aren't you? On what grounds?

In the fact that your in a collapsing multistory heavy stone building with 20000lbs+ of HE exploding around you.

Or are you just hoping to find some über-weapon?

As for an Uberweapon who needs a 14” Naval Gun when you can use 100 MG Jeeps

[Spook]

I appreciate the offer, Dienekes, but that's not necessary. (Maybe you should try with 5 spotters instead of 10; that might still be enough to wipe out the unit.)

Whether the CM engine assesses "killed" from the casualties during actual fire resolution, or from total casualties post-game, is unknown to me. But the upshot of it is that "kill" assessment seems to distribute very tightly to a 20% median value. In overall CM gameplay, I consider this as altogether appropriate in "kill" breakout.

I will allow in the strictly "realistic" sense that very large caliber guns would indeed kill more troops in close proximity to the shell blast, given that the explosive "shock force" would be more pronounced an effect as with the usual fragmentation effect.

[robo]

I'm pretty sure the manual states that KIAs are determined _after_ the battle and are merely based on the number of casualties - so this kind of thing isn't really modelled at all.

[Mikeydz]

Not sure what the concern is... whether or not it's a kill or wounded, when it happens during while the game is playing out, it just means one less enemy to deal with.