Black Sabot Posted March 24, 2000 Share Posted March 24, 2000 Yup, there i was, 4 am, coffee, bathrobe, house is quiet, everyone is asleep, and i am screaming at my monitor. As i yell out the most basic of battlefield commands i watch the little men on the screen ignore me and stroll into the clearing...(sigh). Lets all back up and i'll start from the beggining. I am playing RB as the amis. I decide to send a platoon thru the heavy woods to the left of the town. The platoon advances with 3 squads in line and the HQ trailing behind. So far, so good... Well, about a third of the way in the platoon approaches a clearing. The left hand squad discovers a german unit deployed on the farside of the clearing. Shots are fired, the squad deploys and a firefight erupts. now comes the screaming part. while this is going on the remainder of the platoon decides to continue walking thru the clearing oblivious to the action on their left. The consequence of this "stroll thru the park" was not long in coming. Another german unit appears and sure enough my middle squad and HQ are minced. The survivors panicked and beat feet to the nearest bush to hide behind. Needless to say my flanking move flanked up! Now, This action occured in a space a little larger than a baseball infield (well within the C & C envelope). So my question then is does the final game feature a sort of "collective awareness" on units that are in direct contact. If this was played out in the final game would the remanider of the platoon deploy to assist it's LH squad or are units completely autonomous, reacting only to direct threats to themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 I dont know the answer to that, but lets assume that your men will follow your movement orders verbatim, if not fired upon, and suppressed. You can control this sort of thing by issuing a movement order to the *edge* of the clearing, instead of a continuous movement order across it. As soon as that turn is over, you issue an order to cross it, or an order to fire at your newly discovered friends. One side effect of the 60 second turn cycle in CM, is that we have to develop an Operational Rhythm, where critical decision points are not reached in the middle of a turn. But this raises a question with me. What levels of AI are able to adjust mid-turn? Tactical can, obviously. But Start and Op? The more I think about it, the AI issues orders in the same manner we do, doesn't it? So it shouldn't be possible for the AI to get inside our decision cycle like that. Somebody set me straight. My head hurts now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Only the TacAI responds to things mid-turn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 To make the TacAI smart enough to control your guys in some collective action the way you would want is a tall order at best. What if you were trying to break out and not advance? If your two other squads stopped you would be screaming at them to keep moving. And what if they stopped and weren't in LOS? Should the TacAI start moving your guys for you? Again, what if you wanted them to keep moving? See the HUGE can of worms here? What you are now looking at is a system that involves very little thinking on the part of the player. Automation was never a goal for CM. What you should be doing is going easier on the orders. Remember that each turn is one minute of combat. A lot can happen in one minute, yet if you try to make too much happen you run the risk of things like what you described. Foobar's suggestion of making shorter movement orders is a good one. In real warfare guys did not usually march for long distances in a frontline situation without stopping. Why? 'cuz it ain't safe for exactly the reason that you found out When I am advancing in woods I always walk my guys abreast using MOVE. I keep my men close enough that any two units should be able to support each other unless the threat comes from a far flank. Instead of making them go for long distances I only order my men to move to a "phase line", just like a real platoon would do. Usually this is the edge of the woods, but sometimes it is some random spot inside the woods. This minimizes the chance of getting split up through movement or combat. And in tough terrain/weather it also keeps my guys fresh. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_in_texas Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Black Sabot, The same thing happened to me in the Riesburg scenario, which got me to realising how important the previously mentioned tactics are. One thing I'd like to add to this discussion is to use scouts. In other words, when faced with the same situation of advancing into unknown terrain, I now split up one of my squads and use a half-squad as a scouting unit, with the remaining force proving covering fire. This should prevent the slaughter --or at least minimize casualties-- you (and I) underwent. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted March 25, 2000 Author Share Posted March 25, 2000 Greetings, I agree with you all 100% in regards to my choice of movement commands in that situation. In hindsight i was more concerned with flanking the town than with "what evils lurk in them thar woods". Mike, Believe it or not i have yet to use the squad split option. If i remember correctly the first time i saw it in use was when Fionn advanced thru the forest in the AAR (kampfgruppe Eberbach?). I thought "man, that was clever" and i made a mental note to try it myself. well, I must have misplaced my "mental note" because, well, you know... Anyways, thanx for reminding me. I'm going to fire up RB and give it a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 Hehe... well, how do you think we all developed the tactics mentioned above? By getting our butts kicked being too concerned with what was 300m ahead instead of what was 50m in front Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 25, 2000 Share Posted March 25, 2000 To give you an idea of the utility of scouting I'm gonna tell a story... In a recent PBEM game a beta tester opponent didn't scout ahead using half-squads. He thought that I would be set up in the defensive positions in which he had initially set up my German defenders about 100 metres to the south of a major clump of bocage. Well, being the aggressive SOB I am my very first in-game action was to race all my men across the field and move them north to the bocage and set up a 200 metre wide ambush zone. He walked unconcernedly up to bocage wuthout scouting it cause he thought he knew where I was. Within just over 1 turn I killed just under 200 men for the loss of just over 10 of my own men. In our most recent game he used about 2/3rds of his infantry squads as recon by splitting them up and finding out where my ambush positions were etc. The end result was that he lost 3 half-squads to my ambushes instead of 3 platoons . Scout half-squads are GOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted March 26, 2000 Author Share Posted March 26, 2000 Ok, I see the advantages to 1/2 squad recons. But what about the limitations? 1) Is there a change in the effectivness of command units? (does doublling the number of subordinate units affect response, morale,etc...?) 2) Is there a penalty if the two 1/2 squads venture too far apart? (Is there a limit to the distance?) 3) If one 1/2 squad is routed and retreats does the other suffer morale loss? 4) Follow up to ?#3, If that same routed / panicked 1/2 squad then merges back with its "twin" (or vise versa) does the Ok unit suffer any penalties? I know, I know, you are going to tell me "play the game, try the tactic, see for yourself" but i figured you could spare the time to answer them all in one swoop ( After all you guys at BTS have plenty of free time on your hands, right?... ) Fionn, In my opinion the tactic you described was not an ambush. It was a MURDEROUS ambush. If i saw my guys drop that many men in that short a time i would have been pitching a tent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 26, 2000 Share Posted March 26, 2000 Yeah, I pretty much butchered two entire companies with my starting force of 2 companies when I ambushed them. By the end of the game (when the Uk forces had got another two companies of reinforcements) I don't think a single man from the initial 2 Uk companies was still alive ( I counter-attacked and hunted them and their supporting tanks down ). I have it all on camera in my PBEM movie files and when CM comes out I'll post the AAR. it's a very good example of how to use interior lines to your advantage. Questions: 1 No 2 No 3 No 4 umm, I honestly don't remember. Usually if a half-squad walks into an ambush it doesn't survive since it only has 4 to 6 men and so can be taken down in the first 2 or 3 seconds of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted March 26, 2000 Share Posted March 26, 2000 IIRC, there is a penalty in firepower for split units and your global moral decreases a little. The ambushes are considered an offensive maneouver in the actual field manuals of US Army Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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