Panzerdude Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 I know, you've all probably addressed this before, but is there anyone out there who feels challenged by the AI? VoT begins to become a challenge at +50%, either side, but it takes 75% to 100% in order to be pushed from the field. Since all of you probably beat the AI no sweat, do you have any tricks for making it more challenging? Is there a "quicker" pbem system? Are any of you up to scheduling an evening to get through a game? In other words, will the real McCoy be a challenge or will pbem be the name of the game? Don't get me wrong, I love the game. I just wish the AI wasn't so easy to beat. ------------------ Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Sometimes I wonder myself. Seems like units just go directly forward and don't try flanking manouvers of over 30 meters. Unit own AI seems to the best I have seen so far in a game. But strategic AI feels unimpressive at times. [This message has been edited by killmore (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Perhaps I should hang my head in shame and be banished from this board, but I got swatted by the AI the first time I played VoT. The smoke columns from the Shermans made nice markers for the ambulances that came in to get my infantry. Ok, I think it was only a minor Axis victory, but I felt like I was crushed. Thing was, I didn't know a 150mm infantry gun was out there, didn't know a Panther was coming. Every time after that, I've won, of course, but I remember all my previous mistakes and the poor AI doesn't. (Not a bad way to live, perhaps...) Sure, it ain't as good as a human, but that's what the 'A' in AI means. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for more blind scenarios to really judge the AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Well... no AI, no matter how hard any of us wish, will offer a challange above a semi-competant human player. As discussed before (far too much ) CM's AI is better than anything else out there at a comperable scale, but it is still not what people (ourselves included) would like it to be. Life is often like that Some other things to consider is that once you have played a scenario the AI will be at an ever increasing disadvantage for each and every game thereafter. This is as if you played the game against different modest level humans each time you played. While the enemy will be surprised and not know what to expect, you will know every thing and know exactly what to expect. Do not understimate how much of an advantage this gives you. It is huge. In fact, if you lost to a newbie after playing the scenario once or twice you should be ashamed of yourself So the answer to your question... if you want a challenge equal to your own abilities, you will either have to play against a human or wait for us to collect our Nobel Prize. My suggestion would be go for PBEM There will also be a free patch to allow for TCP/IP (Internet) games as well, but that is a little further down the road. Other suggestions... don't play the same scenario twice. There are an infinite number of scenarios shipping with CM, thanks to the Quick Battle feature, so there is absolutely NO reason that you will have to play the same one more than once. Like I said above, replaying against the AI gives your already huge natural advantage an artificial boost. You can also play more battles on the attack than defense, as the AI tends to do a better job at defending than attacking. And obviously you can play against another Human. There will be plenty of ways to find someone to play against once CM ships, so no worries there. The only thing we could do to make it fundamentally more challenging is to have it cheat like crazy. Right now it doesn't cheat at all, and we are against cheating so it isn't going to happen. The other option, that of making it as smart as a human, is beyond the ability of today's hardware, software, and programming skills. If we somehow managed to overcome all these problems we would most likely be up for a Nobel Prize of some other honor, because we are talking about something that huge. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 And that is the key. After playing the scenario once or twice, you know the forces, and how the game default setup is. The computer AI acts as if you never had played. The human being has the advantage after the first time you played. Unfair to judge the AI when you are on the 10th play og the scenario. To counter this, when you get the game, there are multiple scenarios and dyo battles. You never have to play either side more then once if you didn't want to. You will have your clock handed to you, I know...I beta tested every scenario. Single player, against the AI. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerdude Posted June 9, 2000 Author Share Posted June 9, 2000 Great response! Obviously I understand the advantage of multiple playings and enjoy "blind" scenarios very much. I also think the direct connect patch will be fantastic. My only point, is that some of the AI characteristics are superb, such as Sherms popping smoke and backing up, or changing to the target of priority, so it is difficult to program flanking for example? I will play pbem and against the AI late into many an evening, I'm just hoping in every random scenario the AI doesn't just conduct a frontal assault, that's all. Thank you for the game! It is the best I've ever seen. And someday, who knows, you guys may be the first to use bio storage devices for a wargame, then I'll with the AI would let me win sometimes. Keep up the good work. ------------------ Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWorthing Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Actually i think the AI is pretty good compared to some other games. I've seen the AI in VOT do a flanking maneuver when it finally noticed its frontal assault on the town wasn't working. It almost work but his forces on the flank were too weak. The AI also covered my right flank, basically surrounding me. If it was my first game against the AI, it would have prolly whooped me. Playing the Beta along time ago, I got whooped as allies in reisberg by the AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 I think the performance of the AI can only be judged after you have played a dozen or so blind games. I would expect that a good human player would win most, but a fair number would be "close calls", and probably one or two some sort of unfavorable result (i.e. Draw or worse). The major reason is that luck and the right decisions early on often make all the difference. So how well you do in one or two games is not necessarily representational of how you will do for a dozen or two dozen. If playing VoT the first time you lose your Sherman 105s to the Pillbox, your chances of success are less than if you scored direct hits and instead knocked out all the fortifications AND kept your tanks. But luck swings both ways so you should expect that thigns aren't always going to go for/against you. Oh... and another thing! This is so obvious that we never remember to mention it. But we have been surprised by how many people do this and don't even realize when they make a post. And that is MAKE SURE you are playing with Fog of War on FULL. Playing against the AI with no FoW, and a good tactical skill set, should allow you to mop the map with the AI every single time. The AI's performance in random battles is the same as in ones made by humans. What I mean by that is that there is NO scripting in human made scenarios, and therefore the AI plays without "crutches" all the time no matter who made the scenarios. There will be small improvements to he AI over time, some of which might have significant impact on its playing style, but nobody should expect miracles. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I know...I beta tested every scenario. Single player, against the AI. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sigh. Some guys have all the luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 When I first played VOT, I did win, but it wasn't easy. The IG did some serious damage before I realised what was happening. After that, I got serious ( and lucky ), but i sure put the fear of God into me. Playing blind is the best thrill cause you don't know whats around the next hill. After that, its anti-climax. I'm playing VOT as amis for the 6 time now, with the Axis at +100, and I will wax them, but It won't the same fun as the first time. Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 The first time I played VoT as the Axis (I had played it blind as the Allies), the AI sent much of its "red" force down my right flank. I managed to stop it, but it was a close run thing, and not what I had expected. Another time, playing as the Allies, I sent one of my platoons ahead on the right flank using the dead ground of the small hill to block LOS to the main elevation. When I got w/in 100 meters or so of the road, I sent a half-squad ahead to scout. He made it fine, so I moved the rest of the platoon out... ... and smack into the IG and an MG bunker. Nice little ambush, and pretty surprising. Sure, I beat it, but I was still impressed. I'll have to try it on +100% or so and see what happens. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I think the AI does an excellent job on defense. Above average on the attack. And only average on meeting engagements where forces are more equal. Still much better than games like CC where the AI continuously charges your positions no matter what the situation. Had a game of VoT where I had my guys(germans) in a great position, and I had cut down an HQ and Squad who tried to run by. The AI did not keep attacking, instead just called down an artillery barrage which succeded in wiping out most of the platoon then sent shermans in to mop up. This was very impressive. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 The first BETA game I played was Last Defense and I was mighty embarrassed because the AI ripped my guts out and stomped them into the dust. I was the Germans and I had NO IDEA what the hell I was doing. All the "tactics" I learned playing Steel Panthers did more harm than good (and i loved playing SP). When the Hellcats showed up and blew the hell out of my Tiger and I didn't even know how it happened, I sez to me sez I, "holy crap. what happened?" Even though the AI is not as smart as a typical human, it is smarter than a dumb human or a cocky human or a human that doesn't pay much attention to what he is doing. Of course if you are a Pod, all bets are off. Peng PS I am challenged by tying my shoes sometimes...eurgh. ------------------ Peng sez "die a lot now." [This message has been edited by MrPeng (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 {Raises hand sheepishly} Yeah, I got whacked the first time in VoT. Wasn't being precise enough with the '105 Shermans and they both got toasted (AT gun and 'schreck). Then I lost a complete platoon to the IG on the hill south of town. The whole platoon wasn't killed, but what was left was worthless as a combat unit. I also admit to losing in LD (as Germans) and in CE (as US) but I *DID* win Riesberg, as Germans, first time out. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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