One wee problem...

[DigDug]

Despite the great strides made in this game, I'm wondering if for the next patch (hehe), the distance algorithms shouldn't (couldn't) be tweaked some.

I mean, two Shermans vs. one Panther. All settings at "normal" no advantage for either team. Distance=long freakin ways, all the way across medium map. Panther misses every shot, this was expected. My "veteran" Shermans hit on each of their shots, scratch one Panther (one track hit, next knocked it out). Not a single miss, even the Sherman that was moving while firing.

Next confrontation, same battle. One Sherman vs. one Panther. Distance=extremely close...approx 15 meters. I knew the Panther was there, behind a building. Sent my Sherman around the other side, caught the Panther with his turret the wrong way. My "veteran" Sherman fires 2 shots, and FREAKIN MISSES both! Practically point blank range, right up the Panther's butt and not even a hit. By this time, the Panther's swung it's master blaster around, and BOOM! Dead Sherm.

Talk about frustrating.

Not bitching here, I really love this game. But that to me felt way too much like CC4. Was enough to make me instantly quit the scenario, the game, and shutdown Windows in pure anger.

But I'm already jonesin again. LOL

[Fionn]

Ah, this is an example of my immortal " **** Happens" rule.

In war even more amazing things happened than that.

[Preacher]

Tough luck there. However, one instance does not a sufficient statistical sample make

It's amazing what can happen...

Preacher

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DigDug:

Not a single miss, even the Sherman that was moving while firing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Question and a comment (as we say at seminar):

Comment is that THEY* say that Shermans were the only tanks in WWII with a gyrostabalized turret (and thus the ability to fire on the move with any accuracy) - but that, on the other hand, the crew "typically didn't know how to use it" and thus it was routinely disabled.

Question is - any truth?

*I always wondered who THEY were - turns out it's a couple of guys from Jersey. Who knew?

[Fionn]

There is truth there... except for where they say that the crew "didn't know how to use it"... You can't "not know how to use" stabilisation. It's simply there .

What happened was that :

a) crews often didn't know how to MAINTAIN them and

crews disabled them because they were so used to firing on the move using non-stabilised turrets that they didn't want to adapt during the middle of a war to some fancy stabilised gun.

[Guest DasVolk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DigDug:

Despite the great strides made in this game, I'm wondering if for the next patch (hehe), the distance algorithms shouldn't (couldn't) be tweaked some.

I mean, two Shermans vs. one Panther. All settings at "normal" no advantage for either team. Distance=long freakin ways, all the way across medium map. Panther misses every shot, this was expected. My "veteran" Shermans hit on each of their shots, scratch one Panther (one track hit, next knocked it out). Not a single miss, even the Sherman that was moving while firing.

Next confrontation, same battle. One Sherman vs. one Panther. Distance=extremely close...approx 15 meters. I knew the Panther was there, behind a building. Sent my Sherman around the other side, caught the Panther with his turret the wrong way. My "veteran" Sherman fires 2 shots, and FREAKIN MISSES both! Practically point blank range, right up the Panther's butt and not even a hit. By this time, the Panther's swung it's master blaster around, and BOOM! Dead Sherm.

Talk about frustrating.

Not bitching here, I really love this game. But that to me felt way too much like CC4. Was enough to make me instantly quit the scenario, the game, and shutdown Windows in pure anger.

But I'm already jonesin again. LOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since I just got this truly Great Game I`ve had the same experiences with AI Sherman 75's VS my Panther G's at long range.

I just have 2 more Beers and try to plot better tactics

Seriously, I`m not sure it`s the AI targeting Algorithms.

I have found that altering the Crew quality will have a _major_ impact on both hiting and not being hit. Perhaps more then some designers thought ?

If you use the Editor to open some of the scenarios and check unit experience levels you will see Veteran Sherman VS Regular SS Panzer crews in some/most scenarios. I`m having a lot of fun "tweeking" and have found that mixing in a "Crack" unit evens things out a bit. The simple, user friendly Edtior is worth the price of this game alone.

[This message has been edited by DasVolk (edited 07-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by DasVolk (edited 07-28-2000).]

[DigDug]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Preacher:

Tough luck there. However, one instance does not a sufficient statistical sample make

It's amazing what can happen...

Preacher <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, now I didn't say this was the only instance. This is just one example of several experiences like this. Granted, I only VERY recently started playing the full version. But I've played the demo missions ad nauseum, and saw the same type of situation happen several times.

Yup, **** happens. But it just seems to me that the odds of a "veteran" tank gunner missing a target as big as a Panther TWICE from <15 meters is a little odd. Think about it in real life, and how big a target that is. How the hell can you totally miss twice? LOL. The expression "broad side of a barn" comes to mind.

I know, it's just a game, not real life. No simulation is perfect, that's WHY it's a "simulation". I'm just saying it's frustrating to have something that incredibly crappy happen.

[Aacooper]

To comment on DasVolk's comments on experience levels -- I seen some in scenarios that seem a little odd to me, but remember that the experience levels of German and US tank crews changed over the course of the war. In Normandy, the Germans probably had the experience advantage in most encounters. As the war ground on, the German replacements were as a group very poorly trained. In "Panzer Battles" Gen Mellethin (sorry not near the book now) comments that the new tank crews were barely good enough for the parade ground. Other sources say similar things. Of course, even a veteran Allied unit like the US 3rd Armored in a late-war battle might be mostly veteran, but with a percentage of "green" replacement crews.

[Darwin]

The ability to be calm when under high stress is not an attribute shared by the majority of humans. Perhaps there is more involved in the equation than LOS, distance and target size.

You said you knew the panther was on the other side of the building from your sherman, was the Sherman also aware of it being there? How was global morale doing at the time? Was your Sherman in question under fire or did it have LOS to more enemy units than just the Panther? Had your sherman been fired upon yet during the game?

I have found the game to be a most satisfying simulation. Not at all like the CC games IMO though I did enjoy CC1 and CC2.

[Fionn]

Digdug,

How about someday we put you in a Sherman, scare you to death, make you conscious of the smell of you ******* and pissing yourself and then suddenly have an enemy tank pop up just in front of you and scare you so much you lose bowel control AGAIN. Mix that in with a screaming TC, smoke etc etc.

Then we'll see just how good a target shooter you are .

Sure I'm being fascetious but my point simply is that if you were in that gunners boots you might just do the exact same yourself 1 in 10 times.. I'd rate the odds of missing twice at that range in CM at WAY below 1 in 10.

[dumbo]

hehe this kind of stuff can happen but as far as I can tell you really notice it only becuase its so unusual. Let me give you my sob story.

I have a JgpzIV hull down in the PERFECT ambush position. And I do mean perfect, the map was so cluttered the Canadians (if I recall correctcly) could only advance down one area of open ground. My JgdPZIV was placed hull down overlooking the kill zone with his flanks covered by thick trees. "Yummy" I think to myself there is NOTHING getting through there.

First thing that rolls into view is a Halftrack. I have a perfect view of his flank.

BOOM!

HIT!

Side Hull penetration!

No effect on halftrack.

Hmmm I think to myself thats one lucky halftrack. But the round isnt over yet. The HT starts to reverse but I have reloaded.

BOOM!

HIT!

Side Hull penetration!

No effect on halftrack.

OK now I am starting to freak out as the round ends. I deliberatly target the damn HT again to make sure he dies next round. Guess what?

BOOM!

HIT!

Side Hull penetration!

No effect on halftrack.

By now I am shouting at the monitor but as I scream the half track turns towards me and my gun roars again.

BOOM!

HIT!

Front Hull penetration!

Halftrack explodes.

Hurrah!

Now I confess it did cross my mind to wonder if I had seen a bug but then i recalled just how many times I have blown up a halftrack from the side in the past. Clearly I just had "one of those weird moments" that occur against all the odds.

Cheers,

_dumbo

[DigDug]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darwin:

The ability to be calm when under high stress is not an attribute shared by the majority of humans. Perhaps there is more involved in the equation than LOS, distance and target size.

You said you knew the panther was on the other side of the building from your sherman, was the Sherman also aware of it being there? How was global morale doing at the time? Was your Sherman in question under fire or did it have LOS to more enemy units than just the Panther? Had your sherman been fired upon yet during the game?

I have found the game to be a most satisfying simulation. Not at all like the CC games IMO though I did enjoy CC1 and CC2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I absolutely agree...this is the best damn wargame ever made, as far as I'm concerned. Definitely the most fun to play!

And hell no, would I want to do it myself. I would be scared stiff, and like Fionn said would probably be ******* myself silly. However, this is a "veteran" Sherman team, and global morale was very good as I remember. I know for certain that the Sherman was not taking any other fire...the area had been swept, and that Panther was the last. But even if it WERE raw recruits, low morale, scared plum outta ****, and all thumbs, missing at 15 meters TWICE? Guys, think about the size of that target in the sight at that range. Really, imagine how hard it would be to aim on something like that. You'd certainly have 10 degrees lateral and vertical leeway to hit SOMETHING...ANYTHING. It's practically point blank. I should also mention that on the first shot, they aimed the gun for a good 10-15 seconds. Once it was leveled at the target, there was quite a delay while I was screaming, "SHOOT THE SONNUFFABEYATCH!!"

I could easily understand a shot that does little damage, or maybe even the first shot completely missing the mammoth Panther filling up the gun sight because of nerves. But two shots in a row with no hit at all? Unreal. That Sherman crew deserved to die for that level of "duh", and that's why I made the quip about being reminded of CC4...cause that kind of stuff ALWAYS happened in CC4.

Apparently, you guys think I'm bitching about the game. I say again, I AM NOT. Just relaying the most frustrating, hair-pulling, and maddening occurence I've ever seen so far. Something that was so ridiculous, that it's just plain inconceivable to me that anyone, green or elite, could miss like that.

That's all. I DO love CM, in a bigtime way.

[Fionn]

Digdug said, " But even if it WERE raw recruits, low morale, scared plum outta ****, and all thumbs, missing at 15 meters TWICE?"

LOL. You're talking about some of the same guys who, in real life, can blow themselves up with their own grenades .

Seriously, if I saw this happen a lot it'd be a bug for sure BUT I only see it VERY rarely ( I don't even remember the last time). I bet if you ran this 1000 times it'd only happen 3 or 4 times. You just happened to roll a 3 in a thousand . Like I said, "**** Happens ".

Seriously, run the test maybe 50 times and report back how often a Vet Sherman crew misses twice. I bet it won't be more than twice. Hell, I bet most will hit with the first shot.

As for inconceivable.. Digdug, in WW2 there were cases of bombers landing in the wrong COUNTRY.

In one celebrated case a German night fighter which took off from Germany landed in England thinking it had returned to its home base. This little idiot of a pilot flew about 500 miles the wrong way and only discovered his mistake when he was rugby tackled and imprisoned by some English aircrew who watched as he landed on their airfield. This gifted the British a type of radar they didn't know the Germans even had and altered the course of the air war.

Or, I could tell you about the B17 gunners who were killed when other gunners "tested their guns". Every so often some poor unfortunate SOB would be found with a 0.5cal slug in his body from a friendly gunner.

Moral of the story... If you think it was too ridiculous to happen then not only did it probably happen but it was probably pretty common too .

Seriously though, I'd be amazed if this happened more than 3% of the time ( even that is a high guesstimate on my part).

[DrD]

My 2cents on the gyrostabilizer:

I read somewhere that one reason the crews didn't like the guns was because the mechanism naturually caused the breach of the gun to move up and down in the turret in a way that was unpredictable to the gunner (as he couldn't really see where they were going through a telescopic sight) and even more so to the loader. Not only could this cause accidents in a cramped turret, especially since I imagine it was hard to hold on and keep from swinging around when moving but made the gun difficult to load. In modern tanks the stabilizer is disengaged while the gun is being loaded and only engaged when the gunner's ready to aim and shoot.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbo:

Now I confess it did cross my mind to wonder if I had seen a bug but then i recalled just how many times I have blown up a halftrack from the side in the past. Clearly I just had "one of those weird moments" that occur against all the odds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, FWIW, it doesn't seem at all weird to me. Remember, viewed from the side a halftrack, unlike a tank, is mostly empty volume if there aren't passengers aboard. You could make all kinds of nice holes in the side armor without achieving anything beyond improving the ventilation.

Michael

[Darwin]

It's all good, we've all definitely torn our hair out at times

Mine was 4 bazooka's against a Hetzer in heavy fog, I couldn't land any hits and got mowed. If only they had been PIAT's....

[Darwin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Well, FWIW, it doesn't seem at all weird to me. Remember, viewed from the side a halftrack, unlike a tank, is mostly empty volume if there aren't passengers aboard. You could make all kinds of nice holes in the side armor without achieving anything beyond improving the ventilation.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had a white scout car running away from a couple of german AC's get shot a bunch of times to no effect. It was a hotseat game and lasted more than a turn, it was pretty funny.

[Guest Simon]

Easy enough to test this in a controlled way prolly take 20 minutes.

(back in 20 minutes)

------------------

Simon

http://members.tripod.com/~sjuncal/ammodump/

[Reckall]

It's slight OT, but I remember a very wierd case that I read about while I was researching for a crime-story comic book. The police was informed that two guys were robbing a general store (it happened in an american city, I do not remember which) and of course went to the crime scene to arrest them. The policemen (six men) drove to the scene on three cars, which they parked outside the building, and waited for the two criminals to come out hidding behind them; the policemen had guns in hand, trained on the exit and ready to fire. The two guys hadn't the slightest idea that the police was outside, and just ran out when they had finished their "work". At the sight of the police, one of the guys panicked and fired a gun. All six policemen returned fire, and all six missed. The two guys then ran away * by foot * still carring the robbed money with them, and this is the end of the story The policemen, with all their cars and guns, managed to lose track of them forever. An incredible case of ineptitude from both sides (firing that gun against six armed men was not the smartest of movies...) but also the proof that life can be stranger of fiction: if you think about it, a similar scene in a movie (or in my comic book) would only have raised protests from the audience for being too "absurd", ehehehe!

[Guest Simon]

Okay test scenario was 15 Panther G's and M4A3 76mm with wet storage nose to tail each pair countersunk on the map to keep them from targeting the other tanks. And arganged at 18 to 14 meters, with minor variances in aspect from one to the next.

Out of 7 tries (105 individual cases) point blank rear encounters resulted in an estimated 131 total shots; 0 missed, on average 4 cases per game survived past the initial shot (non-KO hits) or roughly a third of the cases. Out of 105 total encounters the rear tank lost three times due to bad luck (first and second shot failing to KO). In one anomalous instance both the front and rear tank had horrible luck, resulting in 4 exchanges of nonleathal shots, before the rear tank managed the kill.

------------------

Simon

http://members.tripod.com/~sjuncal/ammodump/