Dschugaschwili Posted March 21, 2000 Share Posted March 21, 2000 Oh, and I forgot another one. Will it be possible in CM to play a double blind scenario (possibly auto-generated) against somebody without having to trust the players not to look at the map from the other side? (That is, both players can only play this actual game on this particular map) Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted March 21, 2000 Share Posted March 21, 2000 It seems we are now on two tracks, the scoring system itself and the implementation of the scoring system. In any case, basing the ranking change on the player's score before the game starts or his ranking at the end of the game both have problems. Both don't adjust correctly for the player's skill over the course of the game but rather uses an arbitrary score. A new player will have very little skill, but may gain dramatically over the time taken to play a PBEM game (two weeks to a month). Which ranking do you use? The 1000 he has at the beginning of the game or the 1100 he may have at the end? What if you suck at CM and your ranking drops? Neither using the score at the beginning or the end is a fair representation of skill. The only way around this completely is to get games fininshed in a few days. From a practical standpoint, I think it is easiest on the ranking system if the ranks of both players at the end of the game is used. Less bookkeeping. WRT, players droppong out of losing games, perhaps registering beofre hand that the game will be played for ranking purposes is in order. If a player fails to respond in a certain time frame then he automatically loses 100-0. This way, no matter how badly you are losing it is worth your while to continue playing. A loss can't get any worse than 100-0... Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted March 21, 2000 Share Posted March 21, 2000 Guachi Setting a time limit on the game length is a good way to adress the PBEM issue - yet I think some of the grognards may take issue with this - some like to spend an extrodinary amount of time on a turn no offence intended to anyone ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yobobo Posted March 21, 2000 Share Posted March 21, 2000 Fionn you did not offer to let me host your ranking system. You asked me to give you my "program" and said after you make it better you will give it back for me to use, so we both have one. If instead of this approach, it was asked what needs to be done to my program to make it better for CM I would of gladly made it. I feel the same way today, but nobody has asked. I can put one together and have it up and running in 24 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 21, 2000 Author Share Posted March 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Fionn you did not offer to let me host your ranking system. You asked me to give you my "program" and said after you make it better you will give it back for me to use, so we both have one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok, so I offered to modify your programme to MY standards and then give it back to you to allow you to host it on your site. By anyone's definition that is allowing you to host my ranking system. i didn't make it exclusive since I didn't know you at the time and its best not to commit to any exclusive arrangements until you know the other person can be trusted/worked with well. I didn't say I'd let you be the exclusive host but I did say I'd let u host. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted March 21, 2000 Share Posted March 21, 2000 SS what I meant by "time limit" was on the order of days or weeks. Player B is losing so decides not to respond to Player A. If Player B fails to send a turn within a pre-determined time, (say both players agreed to respond in no less than 3 days for a turn) then Player B automatically loses. Of course, there are always extenuating circimstances like vacations but those should be mentioned beforehand. Even computer problems should be should not be a huge problem. I can wander to my local library or university and get web access. From there I can log onto Battlefront.com and post a message that something has gone wrong. In any event, even if a player automatically loses because of forces beyond his control, he can make it up on the next game. A lower score just means it will increase more (or decrease less) when he plays his next game. If the people on this board and the people I've played PBEM games against are any indication, lack of honor in play should NOT be a problem. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted March 21, 2000 Share Posted March 21, 2000 Guachi, Your clarification on the time limit is duely noted and appreciated I do think you may have not considered an important factor when we deal with time in relation to a ladder. If games are taking two days to a week for instance, to complete a turn - the ladder is going to crawl - this will not meet the needs of all games with CM - I myself and I'm sure I speak for numerous others when I say this - To wait the possibility of a month in a game to see your position change on CM is a bit much I on the other hand do not think that PBEM be disgarded I jsut think that TCPIP will be a more applicable and workable style of play for the main ladder. Tournaments will make good use of PBEM also. With regards to the honor of players; So far I agree overall we have a great group of people here. But unfortunatley there will be others that join the CM community eventually and they may not be as honorable. Also you must consider competitiveness can bring out the worst in people I do think our instances in here with that kind of play will be significantly less than other places but to assume it will not happen would be a mistake ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted March 21, 2000 Share Posted March 21, 2000 If games take an average of 4 weeks to finish all you need to do is have four different games going at once and you will get a change in your ranking once a week. I don't know about the rest of you, but my PBEM games don't go all that fast. These are how long my games have taken 6 days 8 days 38 days 40 days 56 days 113 days (and counting) As you can see, I haven't played much CM PBEM. I haven't even played much CM, period. Only one game lasted less than 25 turns. The shortest three all were against the same player in the same time zone. The 38 day game and the current game were delayed because my computer broke down for three weeks. The three longest games were all delayed because of holidays/vacations. The 40 day game and the current game were delayed because my opponents live 8 time zones away. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't really mind if games take forever to play. The ranking to me isn't something to get overly competitive about. I'll use it more to find opponents in my ability range to play a competitive game with and test my skill against. One question I have is - how many games will we need to get a good sample of our skill? I assume there will be some kind of provisionary section until a member has a certain number of games recorded(say, 10). Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted March 21, 2000 Share Posted March 21, 2000 Guachi< you empitomize my point there are many players out there that are like you and enjoy a slower paced game as a generality those used to turn-based probably make up a large portion of these players But... there are alot of us who will prefer to play online when the Multi comes out it is my contention that one Ladder will not satisfy both of these needs there is nothing wrong with either style to each his own. Personally I would prefer to play point games that can be previewed and deemed acceptable: I think with this they should be rated by the players on "fairness" and ones that are worthy kept on hand for replay as was used in CC2, the points make the maps replayable as blind although the terrain may be familiar (which can be looked at as realisitic in a lot of circumastances) I don't really want ot have to divide my games when Im playing at a competitive level, I would rather focus on one game but not wait an eon to see the results ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out [This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 03-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 22, 2000 Author Share Posted March 22, 2000 Damn Jason, I've had one game make it to 30 turns or so but about 90% of my games are over within 20 turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted March 22, 2000 Share Posted March 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader: I don't really want ot have to divide my games when Im playing at a competitive level, I would rather focus on one game but not wait an eon to see the results <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's exactly the problem I would have when playing in such a ranking system. As some people know, internet access is still very expensive here in Germany, so I don't have a modem in my private computer (because I have free internet access at the university). Of course, this restricts me to sending one PBEM file a day (per game). For most people in Europe/US time zones, this means additionally that when I go home again, it's afternoon/noon respectively, so I won't get a response on the same day. So my current games run at about one e-mail a day. This of course leads to the problems I mentioned above. (Or it means nobody will play me because I'm so slow ) I am well aware that there is probably no good solution to get around these problems, but I want you all to know that these are real problems. Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted March 22, 2000 Share Posted March 22, 2000 Jason,</p> Us crazy graph dudes gotta stick together man... </p> (and I knew my numbers were correct. I was just waiting for Fionn to wipe the sleep from his eyes and re-read it some time )</p> take care,</p> Bruce</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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