AI Artillery Retargeting

[Barbarossa]

First off I would like to say this is an outstanding game. I feel that I am truly addicted to it. However, I have a concern about AI artillery reactions and retargeting. I was playing VOT as the Germans and had 3 squads along the north edge of the map hold up in a wooden building when US artillery spotting rounds began to fall. I immediately gave my 3 squads orders sprint out of the building and directly away from the area where a few rounds had hit when the very next turn the AI had somehow "knew" exactly where I was going to withdraw to and had zeroed in on my squads, decimating them. How could the AI have possibly known that I was going to leave and in which direction and at what speed? Was this just a coincidence or I am missing something? I searched on this item and only found a discussion back in November on AI retarget times, not AI retargeting locations.

Barbarossa

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barbarossa:

I was playing VOT as the Germans and had 3 squads along the north edge of the map hold up in a wooden building when US artillery spotting rounds began to fall. I immediately gave my 3 squads orders sprint out of the building and directly away from the area where a few rounds had hit when the very next turn the AI had somehow "knew" exactly where I was going to withdraw to and had zeroed in on my squads, decimating them. How could the AI have possibly known that I was going to leave and in which direction and at what speed? Was this just a coincidence or I am missing something? I searched on this item and only found a discussion back in November on AI retarget times, not AI retargeting locations.

Barbarossa<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, of course the US forces have 4 artillery spotters on map during the game, able to adjust fire as needed. And if placed on the height the US controls at the beginning, they have a pretty good field of view. Their ability to adjust fire so quickly is a little problematic, not sure about that facet of it. Also, I suppose they could have gone for a 'wide target' command. I called in artillery on German positions during the game I played, and found them quite able to pulverize a fairly significant area (sometimes, I'm sure, inadvertently as they sprayed an area). More detail on how far and fast your troops moved, how quick artillery responded, etc., might make it easier for the (many) more knowledgeable people on this board or BTS to respond more satisfactorily.

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After witnessing

exceptional bravery from

his Celtic mercenaries,

Alexander the Great

called them to him and

asked if there was

anything they feared.

They told him nothing,

except that the sky might

fall on their heads

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barbarossa:

I was playing VOT as the Germans and had 3 squads along the north edge of the map hold up in a wooden building when US artillery spotting rounds began to fall. I immediately gave my 3 squads orders sprint out of the building and directly away from the area where a few rounds had hit when the very next turn the AI had somehow "knew" exactly where I was going to withdraw to and had zeroed in on my squads, decimating them. How could the AI have possibly known that I was going to leave and in which direction and at what speed? Was this just a coincidence or I am missing something? I searched on this item and only found a discussion back in November on AI retarget times, not AI retargeting locations.

Barbarossa<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, of course the US forces have 4 artillery spotters on map during the game, able to adjust fire as needed. And if placed on the height the US controls at the beginning, they have a pretty good field of view. Their ability to adjust fire so quickly is a little problematic, not sure about that facet of it. Also, I suppose they could have gone for a 'wide target' command. I called in artillery on German positions during the game I played, and found them quite able to pulverize a fairly significant area (sometimes, I'm sure, inadvertently as they sprayed an area). More detail on how far and fast your troops moved, how quick artillery responded, etc., might make it easier for the (many) more knowledgeable people on this board or BTS to respond more satisfactorily.

------------------

After witnessing

exceptional bravery from

his Celtic mercenaries,

Alexander the Great

called them to him and

asked if there was

anything they feared.

They told him nothing,

except that the sky might

fall on their heads

[Guest Big Time Software]

Absolutely "coincidence" The AI has no way at all to know where you are going. In fact, the AI has a bit of a problem turning off artillery when the enemy units in the impact area are either eliminated or skipped out of town.

The AI does try to concentrate its artillery, so you must have run into another bombardment that was called down the turn before (or even two turns before depending). Or it might have adjusted its fire, but due to times it doesn't sound like that was it.

One thing that MIGHT tip you off is what sort of rounds were falling in each are. If mortar rounds came down in one spot and 105s in another, it is more evidence that you just picked a bad spot at the wrong time

Steve

[Guest Username:]

Did you have FOW off? When FOW is off (even for human) FOs can target areas out of their LOS. This makes arty hard to move away from.

[Guest Madmatt]

FO can ALWAYS target areas out of LOS.

Barrages in areas out of LOS will tend to be more scattered and wide but it is still very much possible even with full FOW on.

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX...

CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net

CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com

Both now proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing

[Juardis]

I haven't played the demo yet, so excuse me if this has been covered or will become obvious once I start playing, but...

In modern combat, it takes between 5-10 minutes between when a arty strike is called and when shells start hitting the ground. By y'alls description, it sounds like at most a 2 minute delay. Is that right? Is that realistic for the 1940's?

Just curious since it would obviously make arty much less effective when you're being attacked simply due to the fact that you have to anticipate where they will be 10 minutes from then as opposed to 2 minutes.

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Jeff Abbott

[Barbarossa]

Thank BTS/guys for the response. Let me clarify what happened. Shells started to drop, I gave the command to sprint directly out of the building about 75m and then turn left and sprint another 50m into some woods. I had a HQ with them so there was little or no delay in carrying out the orders. On the very next turn the shells stopped dropping in their original location and starting zeroing in on my new location, wiping me out. Maybe this was just out of LOS area fire like MadMatt said. I will have to experiment more. Thanks again!

[Guest Madmatt]

Umm Jeff, pardon my butting in here, but where exactly are you getting this 5-10 minute modern artillery delay number at???

There are many people that post here that have not only had real world artillery experience (and perhaps you have as well, I don't know thats why I am sincerly asking) on both the sending and receiving end but have helped to tweak the artillery procedures in the game and the firing delay has never been sited as an issue.

I think you may want to recheck your figures for modern artillery as a delay by 5-10 minutes would certainly not be much use during a enemy engagement. I was under the impression that steel could be on target in around 45 seconds from the initial request if the battery was On-Call.

Madmatt

------------------

If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX...

CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net

CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com

Both now proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Juardis,

For the most part, people here are talking about 81mm mortar barrages. In CM, we've made mortar strikes arrive a lot faster than "regular" (heavier) artillery, the assumption being twofold:

1. The mortars are "attached" at an organizational level much closer to the troops on the front line (probably only one level up - at the parent battalion, whereas heavier artillery would be at regiment or division, sometimes even corps level).

2. The mortars are in closer physical proximity, maybe only a few hundred meters behind the action, whereas heavier artillery is further back.

Of course, mortars (generally) don't pack as much punch as the heavier artillery so it's a tradeoff.

Barbarossa,

The AI does adjust its artillery fire to changing conditions (and when adjustments are small, the delay until the next salvo hits is also small). But it could have been other factors as well. First, there's an element of randomness as to where the AI chooses to target, and also to where each shell lands - especially if the target is out of LOS of the spotter. It also could have been the work of a second spotter doing the second barrage, planned out before you even made your move, in which case it was just coincidence. Sometimes that happens.

Charles

[Guest JonS]

Matt,

5-10 minutes is about right now-a-days for guaranteed, accurate, adjusted fire. If you just want to have rounds on the ground - and accuracy is not important - it will take about 2-3 minutes from the call for fire till the rounds start landing.

These times depend a LOT on the system being used however. Modern SP guns with GPS, auto loading, and burst fire capability, tied to observers with GPS, LRF, and secure comms can get things happening MUCH faster - of course, that's why that kit is around ...

There are ways to reduce this time regardless of weapon system - the best one being having pre-registered tartgets (TRPs) scattered around your AO so you can call in fire either on, as a short adjustment from, one of those.

Regards

Jon

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Ubique

[Juardis]

JonS. Thanks for clarifying. I should've specified accuracy vs. ffe. Matt, I'm not a professional grunt (nor an amateur grunt ), just read alot like a lot of you guys and I've come across the 5-10 minutes time (actually, the number I remember was 7 minutes, so to be safe, I said 5-10) a few times. Also, I played M1TP2 alot and talked with the designer and consultants to that game and that is also what they told me.

Charles, thanks for the response. I understand the assumption. I also didn't realize they were talking mostly mortars and not the heavy stuff. I need to play obviously...

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Jeff Abbott

[Jager 7]

Greetings, I'm in the artillery business and an FO for the past 18 years. Today, in training, I can get adjustment rounds from Call For Fire (voice) to impact inside 90 seconds depending on the battery experience, FDC training etc. Using 4 adjustment rounds (successive bracketing...slow) I could go from CFF to FFE in 5 minutes. Using one round adjust or a hasty bracket it would likely be inside 3 minutes and could be closer to 2. Even with WWII comm I am confident that in a combat situation things might go a lot faster than normal. You could see a FFE inside 5 minutes with little adjustment, possibly 3 minutes. I think CM does an outstanding job of modeling arty and the FO's. Of course I might be slightly biased. : )

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When the situation is obscure....attack!

CGen. Heinz Guderian

[Guest JonS]

Hi Jager - FO Ack here ~8 yrs.

Don't forget - the computational facilities available in 1944 were biological only. Maybe a slide rule or two to help out. That would slow things a little. Balanced against that would be the training and experience they would have had, which tends to speed things up noticeably.

Regards

Jon

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Ubique

[Jager 7]

Hey there JonS,

Always great to meet fellow Fire Supporters.

I agree with the low tech 1940's solution to gunnery problems. Two things that would have made a direct support battery even more responsive in 44/45 would have been, one: the lack of safety that we take for granted today. In combat most of that gets kicked aside to improve repsonsiveness...they had little to begin with as friendly fire casualties caused by arty in WWII was not uncommon. Two: the arty units in the ETO would not have undergone the turnover through casualties that the infantry units did, so they would have plenty of time and practice to hone their skills with the same crews...thus improving accuracy and timeliness. Again, I think CM does an excellent job of replicating all this...with the one exception that arty is worthless against concrete bunkers for the most part.

Have a great day

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When the situation is obscure....attack!

CGen. Heinz Guderian

[mike_in_texas]

++++Spoiler Alert for VoT++++

Jager 7,

Hi, I'm not in the artillery/FO business, but I noticed that the concrete bunkers are quite a tough nut to crack; it took essentially one of my 105 entire battery's allotment to finally crack the anti-tank gun bunker (crew abandoned it). I know it's just a single data point, but out of curiosity, is that atypical?

I ask this so as to get a god idea of how tough these bunkers are, and if I should "waste" my artillery on them versus using other weapons (e.g., demos, direct fire, etc.).

Thanks,

Mike

[jwright]

mike_in_texas,

In my reccomendation you're better off concentrating your 105mm fire on the wooden bunkers or strong infantry positions. I plastered all my rounds (both mortar and howitzer) from two spotters against one concrete bunker with no effect.

Admittedly, smoke missions against the anti-tank bunker isn't a bad idea. Especially if you're trying to reposition your vehicles.

I've had better luck taking out the anti-tank bunker with my 105 Shermans. It takes time; move forward a bit, shoot, pop smoke and back up. Repeat for five to ten turns and eventually you've got a dead bunker.

Just my 2cents

Regards,

John Wright

[Stephen Smith]

Re: the time to get steel on target for artillery. I have never been an artilleryman, but I have worked several times in battalion TOCs-last fall, I worked in the OPFOR TOC at the CMTC (a maneuver training area in Germany). I am not familiar with the procedures that FOs use to communicate information to the gun tubes, but I have seen the information logjam in the TOC. Based on that experience, I would say that the 2-3 minutes, or 90 seconds (or 45 sec), to get steel on target are minimum times on ideal circumstances-times on a firing range, with no higher headquarters oversight-in other words, the time for the FO to communicate to the firing battery, for the firing battery to input adjustments into their computers, and for the guntubes to fire a round downrange.

Outside of a firing range, a fire request has to go through the battalion TOC and through the FSO-an artillery captain who checks the operational map to insure that no friendlys are in the area (ex. scouts, COLT teams, helos on the flight path between the guns and the target, etc). He may also check with the OIC of the TOC (either a battle captain, or more likely the battalion XO or S-3) to make sure that the gun tubes shouldn't give priority to some other target or anticipated target. This organizational delay is probably greater than 2 minutes (even if the technical delay of communicating, orienting and loading guns is not). This organizational delay will depend upon whether the battalion being supported has priority, whether the battalion is on the attack or defense (and thus whether the target is preregistered or not), whether the battalion TOC is being inundated with other communications at the time, whether the radios are working, whether the FSO is competent, whether the artillery tubes are moving at the time (on the attack artillery battalions generally leapfrog, so that only half of them are available at a given moment), whether the artillery tubes are in the middle of a different barrage at a different target, etc etc etc.

On the other hand, I have only experienced this delay in training-as someone pointed out, in wartime, many of the safety concerns will go out the window.

Bottom line: I suspect that 45 sec, 90 sec, and even 2-3 minutes is pretty optimistic for even modern day artillery-even if the rounds can technically be sent within that period, the organization will slow things considerably. As a SWAG, 5-10 minutes sounds reasonable.

Steve

[Stephen Smith]

As a follow up. Even if artillery is too responsive in CM, I don't feel that it necessarily should be changed. The artillery may be too responsive, but EVERYTHING is too responsive-you as a battalion commander have too much power to relocate individual squads, mgs, and vehicles. In other words, if we change the artillery responsiveness to be realistic (say make it a 10 minute call for fire procedure), but leave the individual maneuver elements unrealistically responsive, then the game will be imbalanced anyway- squads will be able to outrun the artillery more than was historically possible, and artillery will be more ineffective than it historically was. I think the best you can hope for is an accurate 'feel' to the game-does artillery do what we want it to do (i.e. is it a powerful but delayed weapon that can be used to destroy or disrupt enemy defenses, does it require some prior planning, etc etc).

Steve

[Jager 7]

Steve,

Your concerns from your TOC observation/experience are noted. My point was it is completely possible to have rounds down range in a short time and likely in combat. The organization which slows things by its own weight also improves with experience and becomes more streamlined. WWII organization was not nearly as cumbersome as what your TOC scenario references. Bottom line - if they had good comm to a direct support battery in the ETO I would suppose they had responsive fires. I would not like to see the game changed to make it less responsive at all...I think it is just right. I was only commenting on a thread that talked about a typical repsonse time of 5-10 minutes on the modern battlefield. In manuever exercises at NTC or 29 Palms IMHO those times are on the long side for the most part.

Out here

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When the situation is obscure....attack!

CGen. Heinz Guderian

[Jager 7]

"mike_in_texas,

In my reccomendation you're better off concentrating your 105mm fire on the wooden bunkers or strong infantry positions. I plastered all my rounds (both mortar and howitzer) from two spotters against one concrete bunker with no effect."

Mike,

After reading your post and a couple others I guess my experience with VoT is atypical

When I played the scenario the first time I was able to knock out or get abandonment on all the bunkers and pillboxes within the first 10 minutes of game time using arty/mortar fires. That was probably just several lucky hits. I had plenty of arty and mortar ammo left to deal with dug in infantry and a mysterious gun that made an appearance...it was also tossed into the hurt locker in short order.

As for your question I would put some 105 missions on the wood bunkers if you are not getting good results against the concrete ones. Realistically a 105 is not a good weapon for bunker busting of that nature. Tanks, flamethrowers and brave engineers with satchel charges are. Good luck and I guess I will have to give it another go to see if I can get lucky a second time. Have a great day.

Out here.

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When the situation is obscure....attack!

CGen. Heinz Guderian

[mike_in_texas]

++++ Spoiler Alert for VoT++++

Jager 7 & jwright,

Thank you for your responses.

I, too, would've preferred taking out that bunker with my engineers (if nothing more than to just see what it looks like in the game), but I lost my entire engineer platoon assaulting the concrete machine gun bunker! Let's just say I'm learning the hard way in coordinating smoke concealment with my assault. Plus, in 20/20 hindsite, it probably wasn't a good idea to attack it directly rather than performing a flanking maneuver first.

Thanks again,

Mike

[This message has been edited by mike_in_texas (edited 05-19-2000).]

[mike_in_texas]

Double Post

[This message has been edited by mike_in_texas (edited 05-19-2000).]