Claymore Posted September 11, 2000 Share Posted September 11, 2000 The historical record is clear on the morale effects of the presence of tanks on infantry. It was COMMON on both sides of the war for an assault/attack to fizzle based upon the mere presence of armour. e.g. Amis Hedgerow tactics. When defending, the mere appearance of enemy armour stressed the troops (if there were no comparable friendly units). The GLOBAL MORALE in CM tracks this in some ways, if for example your tanks start getting knocked off your GLOBAL MORALE will drop. I am not sure if the MORALE is affect just by the presence or absence of armour. Question: Is it worth applying a bonus/penalty to morale based solely on the presence/absence of armour? IMO the penalty might look either like infantry status moving from OK to ALERTED or dropping the global morale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 This concern has wafted through what I presently use for a brain four or five times, but I admit I haven't really sat down and worked through all the possibilities yet. My hasty reaction is to say that the presence of armor (and maybe certain other kinds of specialty troops) should effect the global morale. Having armor should boost it; losing your armor should hurt it. Seeing the enemy's armor should reduce it. Seeing the enemy's armor when you don't have any should reduce it more. Especially when we start to get into pre-1943 combat this should be true. Bumping the thread up for further discussion. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: This concern has wafted through what I presently use for a brain four or five times, but I admit I haven't really sat down and worked through all the possibilities yet. My hasty reaction is to say that the presence of armor (and maybe certain other kinds of specialty troops) should effect the global morale. Having armor should boost it; losing your armor should hurt it. Seeing the enemy's armor should reduce it. Seeing the enemy's armor when you don't have any should reduce it more. Especially when we start to get into pre-1943 combat this should be true. Bumping the thread up for further discussion. Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Some quick thoughts ... I don't think it should affect Global morale. Unless a squad could see a friendly tank, or witness it's effects, I don't think it would bring them any significant enthusiasm. How could a tank that some people can see and other people can't benefit the morale of everyone? On the other hand, perhaps the presence of friendly tanks might improve the morale of squads local to it. The same effect as, say, a HQ with the "morale" heart symbol. ------------------ -- Toad Ontario, Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Toad: Some quick thoughts ... I don't think it should affect Global morale. Unless a squad could see a friendly tank, or witness it's effects, I don't think it would bring them any significant enthusiasm. How could a tank that some people can see and other people can't benefit the morale of everyone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, your guess is as good as mine on this, I suppose. Seems to me that the presence of armor on a battlefield as small as we are dealing with in CM would not remain secret for very long, especially the armor on your own side. Word of something like that gets around fast even when you haven't personally seen it yourself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On the other hand, perhaps the presence of friendly tanks might improve the morale of squads local to it. The same effect as, say, a HQ with the "morale" heart symbol.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, maybe. On the other hand, armor tends to attract a lot of big-caliber attention including artillery, so you might not want to get too close. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Claymore: The GLOBAL MORALE in CM tracks this in some ways, if for example your tanks start getting knocked off your GLOBAL MORALE will drop. I am not sure if the MORALE is affect just by the presence or absence of armour. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I like this pretty much the way it is right now (considering it's '44-45). As your tanks get knocked off, they will cause the global morale to go down faster since they are worth more points. I agree with Michael. Pre-'43 loss of tanks sholud cause a loss of morale more out of proportion to their point value. I have no idea if it would be possible to code a global morale boost for friendly armor, though. It would need to take into account friendly vs. enemy armor points, relative capabilites, etc. (500 pts worth of HTs/ACs is not exactly equal to 500 pts of medium tanks) ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Mr. Peng, this one's for you. This one could be difficult to implement... Theoretical example: 1. Start battle... Amis: Oh boy... Germans: Oh boy... 2. German armor makes its presence known Amis: Grr... Germans: Huzzah! 3. Allied armor shows up Amis: Huzzah! Germans: Grr... 4. Allied armor gets thrashed by German armor Amis: Doh! Germans: Huzzah! 5. What should be the net morale result for either side? Amis: Back to the morale level at step 2? I think not. Probably below step 2. Germans: Above the start of the scenario? I don't know what the morale outcome should be , but I do know it is a huge can of worms. [This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 09-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: I agree with Michael. Pre-'43 loss of tanks sholud cause a loss of morale more out of proportion to their point value.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I had more in mind that the infantry's morale would plunge when enemy armor would show up, also known as "tank fright". <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have no idea if it would be possible to code a global morale boost for friendly armor, though. It would need to take into account friendly vs. enemy armor points, relative capabilites, etc. (500 pts worth of HTs/ACs is not exactly equal to 500 pts of medium tanks)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think this is taking matters much too seriously. It seems to me that a simple abstraction would do well enough to get the idea across, something on the order of: Before '43 your opponent has armor and you have none, your global morale takes a 25% hit. In '43 and after, a 10% hit. I offer those numbers purely for illustrative purposes, don't take them as a serious proposal. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 Hmmm. I gave this some more thought last night. (Pre-43 morale drop if no tanks vs. tanks) If one was observant, it would be easy to notice that your morale is lower than normal. Gamey? Maybe. Semi-incoherent ramble mode on: How would this fit into FOW? Would your forces not take a morale 'hit' until enemy armor is sighted/heard? How would reinforcements affect it? Presence of AT guns/mines? Could there be a similar morale benefit/detriment for air support? (Yes, I'm thinking of the Stuka) Would this morale benefit/detriment be dynamic (Yay! we killed those tanks!)? Semi-incoherent ramble mode off: Food for thought, but I sure like the concept! ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: Hmmm. I gave this some more thought last night. (Pre-43 morale drop if no tanks vs. tanks) If one was observant, it would be easy to notice that your morale is lower than normal. Gamey? Maybe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why? I may not be understanding your point, but it seems to me that in real life you'd have a pretty good idea what your morale is. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> How would this fit into FOW? Would your forces not take a morale 'hit' until enemy armor is sighted/heard?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds reasonable. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How would reinforcements affect it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Should raise it. If armor, or something decisive, maybe raise it a good bit. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Presence of AT guns/mines?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Guns should help, though not as much as tanks. Mines, I think not enough effect to be worth modelling. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Could there be a similar morale benefit/detriment for air support? (Yes, I'm thinking of the Stuka)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good point. I think so, but lasting only as long as they are doing their thing. Morale would gradually recover after they depart. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Would this morale benefit/detriment be dynamic (Yay! we killed those tanks!)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes! Yes! It should be possible for morale to wax and wane over the course of the battle rather than just simply decline in the somewhat linear way that it does now. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Food for thought, but I sure like the concept!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Me too! I think it should be in. The question is how to make it workable both from a programming point of view and from the playability point of view. As I posted earlier, I think it's important to keep it as simple as possible. We shouldn't merely try to pile on every feature we can imagine, but keep it to only those things that will substantially improve the gameplay experience. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore Posted September 13, 2000 Author Share Posted September 13, 2000 Looking back at BTS reporting on GLOBAL MORALE in the forum I see that they probably had these very concerns in mind. Unfortunately they ran out of time for implementation into CM. A patch for this type of behaviour is unlikely, but inclusion in CM2 would be desirable. Good points everyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: Why? I may not be understanding your point, but it seems to me that in real life you'd have a pretty good idea what your morale is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gamey from the point that it could give you an indication of whether or not the enemy has armor (if your morale is lower than usual: "Ah! He must have some tanks."). More important for PBEM/ladder play than historical battles, though. More and more, dynamic seems the most accurate/believeable way to go. I see FOW being the biggest stumbling block. ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: Gamey from the point that it could give you an indication of whether or not the enemy has armor (if your morale is lower than usual: "Ah! He must have some tanks.").<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, but your morale wouldn't drop until the enemy armor had been spotted in the usual way. Fog of war remains intact. Problem solved? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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