1944: Nazis join Soviets to fight the American imperialism

[killmore]

Nightmare scenario here!

Imagine the following situation:

In 1944 before allies land in Normandy Hitler is assasinated.

Germany tries to negotiate peace with allies. They propose that Allies and Nazis fight the demon of communism. But allies don't want to hear about it - they demand surrender and start landing in Normandy.

In desperation some Wermacht generals turn to Stalin. After a while this idea starts make more and more sense. After all Communism and Fasism are quite similar.

Initially Stalin does not want to hear about it. But they promiss him the full control of Europe and triumph of communism over US. Stalin the magalomaniac agrees.

The conditions for communization of germany are:

1) SS troops are shipped to Moscow so crowds can tear them appart with bare hands.

2) Himler, Gebels, Goring are to be tried as traitors to the people and publicly hanged in Red Square.

3) Germany looses parts of prussia but retains parts of Poland, Czech and France.

4) All T-34/85 get updated to T-34/88! (or panters 75mm gun)

Short civil war starts in germany. SS troops fight and try escape to the west. France is runned over by allies who then start to fight combination of Soviet and wermacht troops.

Japan signs pact with Stalin too. It gives large parts of China to Soviets (Mongolia, Manchuria, etc...) It keeps the rest of China. Now Soviets supply Japan with fuel, T34s, plains and weapons. Soon some Soviet pilots fight P-51D in the german jets over the pacific.

[T-34\85]

An unlikely scenario

The Germans had done far too much damage to the USSR for Stalin or the Soviet people to brook any sort of alliance ... at the start of the war (this is from that excellent World at War documentary series) it was feasible to think of German soldiers as fellow workers in uniform being forced to war by capitalist blah blah but as the war went on there was pure hatred towards these 'fish-eyed oafs' (as some war literature called them) ... a line from one poem went "kill them, kill them all!"

But, for crowds to tear apart some token SS men is unlikely ... there was no jeering or assualting of the captured German troops who were paraded through Mosocow in 42 or 43 ... just silence. At the end of the parade the streets were sprayed with disenfectant though.

T-34\88 ... very nice thought ... I think it would be more likely though that they'd simply start churning out Panther II (with IR gear) tanks in Russia

Of course ... the British and Americans would be SCREWED ... Shermans against masses of Panther II's, Tiger II's, T-34\85's, JS-2's .... oh the horror. Perhaps some cross training between the Waffen SS and Soviet Guards units.

[Rommel]

Well personally I think the allies wouldn't be screwed, I do think they'd take far greater casualties, but they'd probably still retain air superiority. Also think of it another way, how long would it take for russian troops to transport themselves across germany?

But the biggest difference is that America would still be the industrial superior to both germany and Russia put together. This could lengthen the war a few years, but then the british would have their jet fighter into the war action, the p-80 would also see combat.

But even if they did extend the war into 1946, 1947, even without the German scientists that were captured in the time between june 44' and the completion, the americans would have had the Manhattan project completed. Unlike Hitler, i think the German generals at the sight of Hamburg, dresden, or berlin, being oblitterated by a nuclear bomb, would have shown that they were up against too much.

Remember: Truman I don't think would have thought twice about nuking the hell out of anyone opposing us at that point.

Possible outcome: Germany surrenders, russia fights on. Multiple cities in germany are bombed with nuclear devices, Japan probably the same situation as did happen historically. Eventually Lenningrad or Moscow is bombed by a nuclear device as well.

bonus: no cold war. Allied control of all of germany, probably a lot of russia, those eastern block countries wouldn't have been under horrible economic conditions for the latter part of the 20th century.

Minuses: probably at least 100,000-500,000 more american casualties, with equal percentage losses by britain per capita.

[T-34\85]

That's disgusting, 'Rommel'

So the only minuses to the lengthening of the war would be increased American casualties? (and your 500,000 estimate is ridiculously low) Of course the Russian and German losses in such a scenario don't matter, huh?

The US would've been screwed without the A-bomb ... few would deny it. There is no way the Anglo-Americans would've retained allied air superiority with the Red Air Force flying alongside the Luftwaffe (freshly reinforced with pletiful amounts of Soviet fuel) ... also ... the vast majority of the Wehrmacht (on the Eastern front) immediately transferred to the West, accompanied by the entire Red Army? It wouldve been over in short order I can tell you ... and for those transferred divisions the Western front would've been a field day and it wouldn't take that long at all for the Red Army to move up to the Western Front either.

About american industrial might, consider that it has to travel across the Atlantic ... where hundreds of U-Boats made from Russian resources would be waiting.

About the A-bomb, well you can't argue with that can you

But it's a silly argument

[Lanzfeld]

A butterfly in France flutters its wings...the displaced air is heated by a ray of sunlight through the trees...the air rises and contributes just enough energy to brew a storm.....which causes the B-29 or B-17 to take a 35 degree turn to avoid the cell on the way to bomb Berlin with the A-Bomb....which causes the navigator to make a stupid error and miscalculate where he is....which causes the A-Bomb to be dropped on the wrong city......which just happened to be where Patton was!!!! WHOOOOOSHHHH!!!!! The whole war has changed!!!!!

My point is...........anything can happen.....and nobody can say what would happen.

[Zamo]

Those damned butterflys...They always mess up the time line don't they?

[Guest Big Time Software]

So silly, in in fact, that I am going to close this one up

Steve