Computer not using all the points for quick battle?

[Ben Galanti]

I've been playing a lot of quick battles (mostly 500 pointers) and let the computer choose the forces. in several of the battles, the forces chosen for my side have not used all of the allocated points. Now, I know you can't use up every single point all the time, but I've been able to recreate the exact same forces, and then buy more units on top of it when I choose forces. The worst case of this was a 500 point battle where all I got was a Sherman V and a Vickers MG team, about 150 points of troops... Is this supposed to happen?

[Seanachai]

Totally different question on same subject: What factors does the engine for Quick Battles take into account when designing forces? Is the nature of the terrain taken into account? Day or Night? Weather? Does the engine consider the nature of the operation type or 'defender' or 'attacker' status when pulling together a side? And does the engine use historical or realistic criteria when putting together a force? I'm talking about things under the hood here, not the obvious things like what units were available at what time period. I've found the Quick Battle generator very intriguing and a wonderful tool, and would like more info on what's going on its 'head' (if anything. I suppose it could all just be random, within the limits set by user selections).

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Page 109 of the manual, under the heading Battle Type, says: "Assault, Attack, Probe, or Meeting Engagement. This determines the force balancing (how many points the defender gets, how many the attacker)...whether the defender may have fortifications."

Under the heading Force Size it says: "500-1000 points. These are the maximum points allowed for the DEFENDER."

I take this to mean that you set the maximum points for the defender, then depending on the kind of engagement, the attacker receives some multiple of that, additionally modified by the handicap, if any. That gives you a point total for the attacker to spend purchasing units.

Michael

[Ben Galanti]

Michael,

I did see that in the manual, but I read that to mean that the defender should get 500 points, and the attacker would get more. Also, I've been playing meeting engagements, were the amounts should be equal. Even so, I wouldn't think that either side would ever get lesss the 500 points (excluding the couple of leftover points since it'd be hard to hit 500 on the nose...)

[Guest Michael emrys]

Agreed. My reply was to Seanachai's post. The point you bring up does sound like a definite glitch. Until BTS can address it, I would suggest that you select your own forces. Personally, I prefer to do that as a matter of course, not trusting the computer to read my mind and know what tactics I intend to use and thus tailor my forces to suit those tactics.

I guess in the instance you cited, the computer assumed you had been heavily attrited before you got to the present battlefield (maybe a "friendly" but misguided airstrike?).

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 06-30-2000).]

[Preacher]

Is it possible that the AI purchased air support for you and it never showed up?

Just a thought.

Preacher

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Agreed. My reply was to Seanachai's post.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 06-30-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I also assumed your post was to Ben. I have, in fact, read the manual and I totally understand the point you referrenced. What I would like more info on is any 'unseen' mechanics of unit selection. As I said, does the engine use historical factors (other than x vehicle or unit became available at y time), or realism factors when choosing units? For example, would I ever be seeing divisional support type SPA in a meeting engagement? It's available for the computer to choose, but I would never expect to encounter a force like that historically. Another example: does the engine, when choosing for the computer player, look at the fact that a 'mechanized' or 'infantry' force on the defensive is facing armour, and therefore makes sure to give them a decent AT ability? I can see all the parameters the player can set, and I've read the documentation most of which regards how choices you make affects the forces available to you. What I would like some insight into is how the choices made affect the computers unit selection. As I said, it could, quite possibly, be completely random (within point limits, time period, and other parameters that are set), or are there other techniques of weighting, conditions, and historical or realism factors that the computer takes into account when generating a force? But I thank you for your post, of course. I guess I'm specifically looking for info that only BTS, or possibly some of the beta testers could provide (or perhaps it's been discussed in the past, I should have gone for a search, it's just that that's getting more daunting by the day, and I also kind of had the impression that the Quick Battle generator might have undergone a lot of change over time).

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[alex127]

Ben, in a pinch, you could always do the following:

As soon as you've set all your Quick Battle Parameters, & the Battle Map opens up for the first time, before you make any moves at all, save the game & then close it.

Once you do that, you can actually use the Editor to open that Saved game, make any extra purchases or changes you need to make, & then save that game in the Scenarios folder.

That game will then be listed as a Scenario & you can play it as such.

You just have to make sure not to make even 1 move when your Quick Battle first opens up before you save it. Because, if you do the Scenario Editor won't open it for you.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Seanachai, that's a very good point. I am inclined to believe (on admittedly very scanty evidence) that the computer tries to put together a resonably "sensible" force representative of its type. I don't think it always succeeds. I don't think it tailors the force composition to the mission, aside from adding, say, an artillery observer or a specialized piece of equipment like a flamethrower tank. I think that that is fairly realistic as the great majority of the time, companies and battalions were handed assignments to perform "come as you are". They might get extra artillery support or have some tanks assigned to them, but seldom more than that.

Planned assaults against established positions were of course a completely different affair. *They* usually got the kitchen sink.

Michael

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I am inclined to believe (on admittedly very scanty evidence) that the computer tries to put together a resonably "sensible" force representative of its type. I don't think it always succeeds.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, my experiences with it so far are that the force usually is fairly well balanced and appropriate. Occassionaly, though, you see some odd things. The strangest I've encountered was a small map, 'town' battle, with a small point allotment (I can't remember what I gave it, 500 or under, as I remember). I attacked as Brits, and gave the Axis the right to use 'combined arms'. The force defending the town ended being a pillbox, some halftracks, a couple of armoured cars, and a gun (75, I think). It was like I caught a recon patrol on the edge of town, or something. My forces rolled right over it in a few turns. Course, that was one of the earlier situations I set up, I hadn't played with Quick Battle much yet. I love the fact that this feature allows blind play and seems to put together reasonable forces. Just wish I knew a little more about its 'internal criteria', like I've said.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[19 Echo]

The computer does sometimes put together a "creative" force mix. In one Axis defensive battle I got 4 Jgpz IV's, 2 Marder III's, a HT, a HT 81mm mortar, and a Lynx, plus 2 Pzgd platoons and a 75mm SiG. This was a Jan. 45 battle, so I figure this was the remnants of a Panzer division in the Ardennes. The computer decided to throw a whole bunch of Churchills and Shermans at me. Did you know a 75mm AP round will bounce right off the front of a Churchill? I know now. There were no good defensive positions. I tried to set up keyhole shots using buildings, but it didn't help. I did take out a Sherman with the SiG, though. I get those a lot in defensive battles.

Interestingly, I haven't fought Americans yet. Always British or Canadians.

-- 19 Echo

[L.Tankersley]

Ben, how big a point discrepancy are we talking? Could the computer be buying high-quality troops (they cost significantly more than "regular")?

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

Ben, how big a point discrepancy are we talking? Could the computer be buying high-quality troops (they cost significantly more than "regular")?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa! Do 'veteran' units cost more than 'regular'? I thought setting troop quality was a parameter uninvolved with point costs? I will have to take a look at this, but I don't believe troop quality impacts point costs. Hmm, must log off and check this...