Guest jaja Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 Hedgegrows are very thick and, therefore, provide good cover. My guys always run away to scattered trees when they're in the middle of a hedgegrow! Sometimes they even run there across the hedgegrows! ->==============::============== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdcarcajou Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jaja: Sometimes they even run there across the hedgegrows! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey, Ummm, I don't think those are Hedgerows. I think you are talking about Hedges. BIG difference. Infantry take quite a while to cross a hedgerow, while hedges hardly slow them at all. Hedgerows do provide cover, while hedges barely conceal you. If you are in a Quick Battle there is no way it is a hedgerow, because QBs don't generate them (or rivers, for that matter). Check the terrain again... Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 I am talking about the big ones. I believe CM calles them "bocage". Sorry for not making that clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 Hedgerows are indeed thick, but they're not solid. A tangle of branches will cause you a lot of trouble if you want to get past, but it won't offer you much cover to hide behind. In CM, hedgerows block vision unless you're right up against them. If you're close, you can see through, and you can also be seen and fired upon from the other side. David ------------------ Guderian's anger was monumental. He struggled for words. "To say that the troops are to blame – look at the casualties!" he raged. "Look at the losses! The troops did their duty! Their self-sacrifice proves it!" Hitler yelled back. "They failed!" he raged. "They failed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 Thick branches and very compact soil. Look at some close up pictures and I'm sure you'll change your mind (I used "Beyond the Beachead"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busboy Posted October 21, 2000 Share Posted October 21, 2000 I think jaja may be on to something, however not as much as he thinks. Bocage is more than just a tangle of undergrowth, the root systems of all those plants create a natural mound of dirt at the bottom of it. (SPR illustrates this pretty well before they attack that RADAR post. Just look at the b ocage they're next to before they attack) HOWEVER, if infantry gets spooked, they're not gonna run to the place that provides best cover if they are still gonna be fired apon. I think that if you tell infantry to head for a bocage rather than let them decide for themselves, they'll stay there. ------------------ busboy CO, 99th Dragons A Warbirds Squadron 'We will heat you up' "It is well that war is so terrible, else we would grow too fond of it." -Robert E. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted October 22, 2000 Share Posted October 22, 2000 Nope, I had to learn this the hard way a bunch of times. Also, I just found out that if a unit is right next to a hedgegrow, they can see through it (including tanks). I've played a few hedgegrow scenarios and the best tactic for them now seems to be to hide right behind them to try to ambush enemies (works well only if you have a foxhole). If hedgegrows were more accuratly modeled a more historical approch (hide in the opposite side of the hedgegrow for cover) would be used more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted October 22, 2000 Share Posted October 22, 2000 I think, in fairness, jaja, that the bocage is not really "inaccurate" in its existing model. The cover bonus & relative "time to cross" through bocage seem right to me, and bocage blocks vehicles from passing except for Allied tracked vehicles from July '44 onwards, which is usually appropriate a constraint too. (PS: bocage should NOT be played down in its cover benefit; it reduces fire to 22% effectiveness when trying to shoot at soldiers fully on the other side.) Rather, what I think you have to consider as to what is "inaccurate" here is the behavior of the troops themselves in identifying "types of cover". A scattered-tree area is "regional" cover while bocage, walls, & hedges are "linear" cover that affects fire only in certain directions. And when troops start to look for cover when in a cautious/shaken/panicked state, it seems to make for the nearest regional cover. (Broken/routed troops will usually still run for the "friendly" map edge.) I may be going on a bit of a limb in describing this, but I've related to BTS in e-mail similar instances on how panicking troops will run TOWARDS enemy troops behind bocage. It may well be that the reason this is happening is that the nearest "regional" cover is on the other side (the enemy's) of the bocage. Anyway, jaja, that's again what I think you're seeing---the "regional" vs. "linear" effect in types of cover, and which type that panicky troops will go to. This may not be easily addressed by BTS (if at all) as no straightfoward programming solution exists to make a panicky unit to think, "Yeah, we can duck down here, all the fire is on the other side". But I have my own hopes. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 JaJA is on to something. Bocage typically had 1-3 meter earthen mounds supporting root systems of thick brush and trees that can be 15 meteres or more high and often making vegetative tunnels over lanes. Countless reports on both sides contain reports of guying of opposing sides being just seperated by the bocage and unknown to each other until contact during movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 I think everyone here could be right, depending on the kind of bocage they're talking about. Bocage could be anything from a thick hedge a few metres tall to "a 1-3 meter earthen mounds supporting root systems of thick brush and trees that can be 15 meteres or more high and often making vegetative tunnels over lanes". Wilhammer's example it taking it to an extreme – this kind of a terrain feature is far more than a simple hedgerow, and the latter is what you'll find in CM. There is no single accurate definition of 'bocage' or 'hedgerow', so for what it simulates, there is nothing wrong with CM. I think the problem we're skirting here is that a big, thick, ancient hedgerow of the kind which would block LOS and be completely impassible to vehicles simply isn't modelled in CM. There are plenty of other things which aren't in the game, and BTS's time is limited, so this is fair. David ------------------ Guderian's anger was monumental. He struggled for words. "To say that the troops are to blame – look at the casualties!" he raged. "Look at the losses! The troops did their duty! Their self-sacrifice proves it!" Hitler yelled back. "They failed!" he raged. "They failed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 BTW, I forgot to add something that I should've for jaja, based on his first post. Jaja, in case you didn't know priorhand, you should be "behind" the obstacle instead of "on" it to get the maximum cover benefit. For example, you won't get the cover bonus for a stone wall if you plot your troops to move ONTO the wall. Just plot for them to move to the open ground that is close behind the wall or hedge. Similar for bocage. I've inspected repeatedly through a "test" scenario I did for bocage effects months ago, and have noted the relative cover bonuses. Being IN the bocage will give some cover, but being BEHIND it gives better cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 Aitken hits the nail on the head. When I was in Normandy for the first time, boy was I surprised to find that most of the famous bocage were simply small hedges, sometimes on a small earthen elevation of a feet or so. Sure, there is this famous cliche-bocage of ancient wall / drainage system, which has overgrown, and gives the penultimate trench+cover+concealment+total blocking of LOS to the other side. However, in many many places it is not that impressive. Again, if the bocage in CM is modeled correctly or not depends on what kind of bocage you measure it up against, as there is no ONE bocage, obviously. Oh, one more thing, personally I have found that when your troops are caught while passing through the bocage that this is the ultimate deathtrap. IMO being IN the bocage is the absolute anticover. Might be just my experience, though (YMMV). ------------------ "Rule#7: All players must follow the rules." (Rob/1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 are you sure those were the wwii hedgerows? stephen ambrose wrote in Citizen Soldiers that there are only a few vintage big wwii style hedgerows left in europe. ------------------ "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaja Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 Just bumping this to the top. Maybe BTS could reply so we know precisly what we're dealing with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 This topic brings a tear to my eye hehe. In answer to your question I should say that there have been some extensive discussions on this issue in the past which are difficult to distill into something concise. Basically, what you are seeing is really two different issues. The first is the limitations of the TacAI with regard to cover which has already been addressed. It seems that it seeks to hide in cover rather than behind it. I guess this may be addressed in future iterations of CM although I can see it being difficult. The second is that bocage is 'inaccurately' modelled in that it is modelled as homogeneous. At the moment it seems best to treat bocage for cover purposes as a wall surmounted by a hedge. Thus if you are behind it (but not in it) you get the cover/concealment of the 'wall' and the hedge. Whereas if you are in it you are on the wall and only get the cover provided by the hedge. Now we just need some searchonauts to track down some threads. ------------------ "Fatso-the battlers' prince" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 Do you think, Simon, that your following comments from more innocent times might bring another tear to your eye? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> (from Simon) Like a moth to a light, so I am drawn inexorably to this thread. Thusfar I have resisted it's lure hoping it might fade into obscurity. But alas it's siren song can be resisted no longer. First you have to understand the bocage in CM is an abstraction of the real thing. In real life hiding in bocage means dug in behind the earthen bank which comprises the base of the hedgerow not sitting up perched on top of the bank in amongst the vegetation where in fact you would be quite exposed (to fire if not to observation). Therefore when in CM your guys are "in the bocage" they are essentially crossing it and so fairly exposed. If you want to use the bocage defensively in CM you need to be behind it not in it (though as close as possible to it) this simulates the real life circumstance of being dug "in the bocage". This distinction in CM is made so that the game can simulate both the exposure of crossing it and it's defensive value. Secondly, the bocage hedgerow terrain tile in CM represents the worst form of real life hedgerow which is impenetrable to tanks. In order to simulate bocage hedgerows of lesser density you need to use other terrain types ie hedge etc For some further enlightening discussions of this subject http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002878.html This ones the best http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001786.html also a good example of two guys argueing 'til they're blue in the face hehe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, Simon, that second thread you've cited ("Ghost Walls") was pretty civil in discourse between the "arguing members", when compared to some of the verbal onslaughts that have occured on this forum between other guys since then. My search also had run me across some posts by "Jochen Peiper". Yech, I didn't need to bring up bad memories of that clown.... [This message has been edited by Spook (edited 10-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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