Anyone interested in working on a collab project to make a map pack of Bakhmut?

[Zveroboy1]

So I was wondering if there are people who would be interested on working on a Bakhmut map pack together. I floated the idea on discord and thought I'd post something here too in case people are interested.

I was going to try and make a couple of maps myself and release a mini pack but I know there are lots of talented mappers around and I thought that if several people worked together, we could fairly easily have say half a dozen maps that we could perhaps release this summer.

The idea wouldn't be to map the whole town nor to make a master map. It would be way too long and difficult and anyway the street layout of Bakhmut is such that I don't see how it could be possible anyway. It is a lot easier if instead we can rotate each map in order to have streets align with the CM grid.

Anyone interested could participate and you wouldn't even have to be an experienced mapper either. Actually it wouldn't be a bad way to learn if you're an aspiring mapper and have been tempted to give the editor a go. Participants could just select a small area too. Something as small as 300 X 400m would be perfectly fine and actually it is probably better for this sort of thing not too be too ambitious and select something reasonable.

Also it doesn't necessarily have to be a city map. Someone could pick an area around Bakhmut too, that would work: fields or a small village, or a chunk of a village in the area around Bakhmut proper for instance.

Let me know if you are interested and want to contribute to the project.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Zveroboy1

[Zveroboy1]

This is the two chunks I have picked myself:

A is a suburban area called Budenivka or Budyonovka. 1400 X 1000 m

B is the railroad with Bakhmut's train station. (haven't finalized the size yet but 700 X 400m  or so)

See plenty of space left.

The idea here is people pick an area, then either save this google earth photo and add their own map frame and upload it to imgur or just send me the updated picture and I'll post it myself. We need this reference map so we don't map the same area. If someone wants to map an area that's outside the frame, just let me know, I could add a second more zoomed out reference picture later.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Zveroboy1

[TheFriendlyFelon]

I'm game. I'm finishing my Battle of Hostomel campaign finally and then I'll start working on Bakhmut maps with you.

[Zveroboy1]

Welcome aboard.

Okay cool, yeah no rush. The plan is to release something this summer. End of June or July, something like that. We'll see.

[Artkin]

I would totally be on board to do some of the dumb work. However I would prefer that we went for larger than smaller. I wouldnt mind clearing out the Rad full 2 map for the team so we can get a 5.7 x 5.7km chunk. Even if it's not 3d editable at that size, it can be shortened, 3d edited, then re-expanded to its proper size before or after saving the file. 

[Zveroboy1]

This is what I've got so far.

map B: Budenivka district 1500 X 1100m

I think I am going to try and focus on the southern flank; I have been studying Suriyak maps to find the actual directions of the attacks in each sector. I want to do one of the Optyne road and another one near the Mig monument at the entrance of Bakhmut which is actually right next to this map here.

Ideally we'd need the Azom complex and some iconic tower blocks. Some AFU counter attacks could be nice too in the Kischiivka sector for instance.

If there are some people who are interesting in participating to the project but are not familiar with Bakhmut, this is a good resource. With daily updates showing the frontline inside the city and where exactly fighting took place. I mean clearly the whole city was a battlefield but in order to frame the maps correctly, it helps to know the directions of the thrusts. Often you can see block by block where the fighting occurred. 

 

[Zveroboy1]

9 hours ago, Artkin said:

I would totally be on board to do some of the dumb work. However I would prefer that we went for larger than smaller. I wouldnt mind clearing out the Rad full 2 map for the team so we can get a 5.7 x 5.7km chunk. Even if it's not 3d editable at that size, it can be shortened, 3d edited, then re-expanded to its proper size before or after saving the file. 

Hmm I honestly don't see how it can work the way you describe it. That way lies madness imo.

First it would never get finished if we tried a master map of the whole city. You have got to be realistic. Even with this small project here, we will be lucky if we come up with 3-4 maps, the two of us working together, before it becomes too tedious. Urban maps are hard work. But it is still a lot more manageable to break it down into separate chunks.

Also take a look a the streets network. There are all over the place. You can get away with not having perpendicular roads if you do a country side map but streets act as fire lanes so they need to be straight as much as possible and also buildings won't even fit otherwise.

Besides how do you propose to have several people work on a master map? That's the beauty of this approach. It is easy to split the work. If we had 3-4 valiant mappers, we could have enough maps to provide a decent sample of the different sectors and give the community plenty of material for scenarios, campaigns and QB maps.

I know you are fond of large maps but you should give us a hand and take part in the collab! You can try a fairly large one if you are brave but chances are you will curse yourself in the end lol. Just take a look at Google earth and pick something that feels interesting to you.

[Artkin]

8 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Hmm I honestly don't see how it can work the way you describe it. That way lies madness imo.

I would have never been able to pull off my September 13th 1942 mastertoe of both German 6th Army/4th Panzer Army + Soviet 62nd Army without a bit of madness.

At least 100 hours devoted to the editor alone for that build.

8 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

First it would never get finished if we tried a master map of the whole city. You have got to be realistic. Even with this small project here, we will be lucky if we come up with 3-4 maps, the two of us working together, before it becomes too tedious. Urban maps are hard work. But it is still a lot more manageable to break it down into separate chunks.

The way I see it, elevation should be pretty uniform for the city and won't be the biggest issue. I would prefer doing one large map that equals the same sq km of the 3-4 maps. I feel like small city maps have little replay value unless they're unique and interesting terrains. I would volunteer for the dumb road and housing projects. I know roads take forever because you have to use 4 different tiles for every turn. It's tedious but a good audiobook will help ease the pain.

8 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Also take a look a the streets network. There are all over the place. You can get away with not having perpendicular roads if you do a country side map but streets act as fire lanes so they need to be straight as much as possible and also buildings won't even fit otherwise.

True. In my Donetsk attempt I had to sacrifice the firing lanes for jagged streets and walls. I actually thought it made the map interesting although the walls were shaped pretty weird. I haven't tried the 45* road mod but that would fix the roads and not the walls. I have also noticed how tight things can get after you've placed roads and walls, you're really scraping for space on the map. It's painful, I know.

8 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Besides how do you propose to have several people work on a master map? That's the beauty of this approach. It is easy to split the work. If we had 3-4 valiant mappers, we could have enough maps to provide a decent sample of the different sectors and give the community plenty of material for scenarios, campaigns and QB maps.

I would expect we would use a dropbox and have the map loaned out for the day, or period of time. We would communicate in a group chat so we don't overwrite each other's work accidentally. File could be saved as: Bakhmut 005 artkin. Just be sure to write when you're accessing the file, and be sure to save/upload it when you're finished.

When I read collab I thought you meant working on a single map. If we all do individual maps that could work too but that's not what I expected. I'm terrible with elevation but I don't mind doing the brainless time consuming work. Therefor I wouldn't be too interested in providing a map that I've done by myself. Even though it's a city, I don't have the artists touch like others do.

If anything, I think it would be smart to start in a location and expand the map outward as progress is made. That way you're never suffocating in work with an unfinished project. You would just have to do multiple editor overlays which can be a pain.

I'm still down to help with anyone else's map, but I don't know if I'll make one entirely by myself. I do want to see progress being made in the community and I'm willing to fuel projects.

[Artkin]

I would also like to add that having perfect roads particularly on small city maps can result in long lines of sight, rendering that section almost unusable at least from a scenario designers perspective. Roads will lead off the map and thus leaving a few hundred meters of clear LOS. Even if it's broken up toward the center of the map it still leaves a lot of open ground that's easily exploitable particularly in pbem. 

By the way Map A looks phenomonal.. as to be expected by your excellent previous works. 

[Zveroboy1]

4 hours ago, Artkin said:

The way I see it, elevation should be pretty uniform for the city and won't be the biggest issue.

Bakhmut is very hilly. It is not only surrounded by hills, it is actually built on a series of rises and ridges. It is anything but flat. It is not obvious if you just look at footage of the fighting or watch aerial views from drone cams which flatten everything visually but it is not uniform at all.

Take this sector for example where Wagner attacked along the red arrow.

You got high ground on the north west on the other side of the lake, approximately 150m high. The lake itself sits at roughly 100m. Then the built up area slowly climbs up to 130m towards the railroad tracks to the east before the elevation slowly drops toward the Bakhmuta river. The blue buildings at the bottom center of the satellite photo, a former military base: 165m. The whole place is like a mini rollercoaster. In practice I found myself having to manually adjust the elevation in tons of place in order to avoid having buildings sunk into the ground because of all the slopes.

4 hours ago, Artkin said:

I feel like small city maps have little replay value unless they're unique and interesting terrains.

Yeah this is true for every map really, once you have played on it once or twice, you understand the lay of the land and how the terrain dictates tactics you can use. But I find you can mitigate this problem by framing the map in such a way that it is possible to attack from multiple directions. In the Budenivka map for example, you have the historical Russian attack coming from the south side. But the way I have framed it, it is possible to attack from the east towards the west and vice versa as well. Ideally you could also throw in a meeting engagement too. Several maps built on this model would provide with a fair bit of replay value imo.

4 hours ago, Artkin said:

When I read collab I thought you meant working on a single map. If we all do individual maps that could work too but that's not what I expected. I'm terrible with elevation but I don't mind doing the brainless time consuming work. Therefor I wouldn't be too interested in providing a map that I've done by myself.

Nah I explained this clearly in the first post. But it is okay, no worries. To be honest I didn't expect too many people would agree to work on this project, my expectations were low but I thought it was worth a try. I know alone I could only create 2-3 maps at this level of details before it gets too tedious and I get burnt out. If more people are interested, that's great. If not, no big deal, I'll publish what I managed to make in a month or two and that's that.

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Zveroboy1

[Stannisisbest]

 

I would be happy to help I’ll work on the northern part of Bakhmut 

[Zveroboy1]

Great.

Okay I am not touching the northern flank myself. I'll update the reference map soon with the sectors I plan on doing but there shouldn't be any overlap. There is plenty of real estate available for everyone here really.

I don't know how experienced you are with mapping, but if you need any help with picking an area or if you have any questions let me know, I'll try to help if I can either here in the thread or you can send me a private message. Perhaps don't try something too large or ambitious and stick to something reasonable, that would be my advice.

[Stannisisbest]

should I make the map destroyed or leave it be?

[Zveroboy1]

Yes good question, I have been pondering about that too and I am open to suggestions here.

Okay the way I see it, I don't think it can be entirely devoid of destruction and ruins. Clearly that wouldn't feel right. However I wouldn't go for fully destroyed either personally. Half the fun in this game is blowing things up after all lol. I mean it is up to you really but yes there needs to be some damage. How much exactly, I am not sure. I haven't added that many fully destroyed buildings yet, less than 20% of buildings, probably not even that. I should probably add a bit more. I have plenty of buildings with damaged roofs though.

It would probably make sense that the more you go towards the center of the town and well the west side where the last stand took place, the more it should be rubbled. Maybe less so on the outskirts during the initial stages of the fighting.

A nice trick is to use independent buildings here and there. They can be riddled with bullet holes and they look different when rubbled than modular buildings. Especially the ones with 3 floors. They are not completely flattened but have half standing walls.

What you should definitely do is add the [rubble] modtag to the map. It turns heavy rocks, a tile that won't normally be too useful here, into rubble. And add some of it near ruined buildings. I also use [trashsoft]. It turns sand, another terrain you can do without into well trash. It adds a nice touch sprinkled here and there I find.

No need for brackets by the way. Just create a .txt file with notepad and put it in documents/Battlefront/CMBS/game files.

I hope this is useful.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Zveroboy1