Why does the BMP-2 not have a dedicated three man crew?

[Simcoe]

What was the Soviet thought process behind having the vehicle commander dismount? Seems like it would just make the vehicle worse for the sake of an extra dismount.

[domfluff]

The main thing is that the Soviets only planned to dismount when they were forced to, or when there was no other option. That really means the answer to your question is that if they're only dismounting when they have to, then having the additional man is important where you need it. Otherwise, they stay mounted, and the question is moot.

You can see some of the logic behind this in Cold War - US call in times are typically in the 2-5 minute range, and dismounting will mean that you're going to slow down - if you're dismounting into a kill-zone (and that's far from unlikely), then this can be disastrous. There's also NBC concerns, but even without those then it's a good idea to not dismount, if you can get away with it.

Dismounting is necessary in complex terrain, or when terrain has to be cleared or held defensively. Ideally this kind of area would be bypassed - typically your objectives should be pushing you ever-onwards.

When dismounting is appropriate, correct BMP usage looks something like this:



The HQ element is in contact will all parts of their platoon. The squads are within four actions spots of their transport, and the IFV and dismounts will use whatever cover is available. The BMPs attack with area-fire as their primary purpose, and the dismounts are their eyes. Staying within four action spots means that the squads will share spotting contacts with their transport.

The horizontal separation is mostly just a good idea, but clearly should adapt to terrain and circumstance. The platoon does not want to lose sight of itself at any time.

To complete the circle on this one, the Soviet squad:



This is the central squad in the above, so it's the one where one of the riflemen is now the platoon's SVD marksman. Aside from that, this is identical to the other two squads. The squad splits into two fireteams - the four man team is the squad's base of fire, and the three man rifle team is the squad's manoeuvre element. The platoon attacks on line as a single unit, with the emphasis being on prioritising fires.

Edited April 18, 2022 by domfluff

[domfluff]

Oh, and the extra stuff, just to get this down:

BMP smoke fires forwards, about 100m-120m. This can be fired from a reverse slope to the forward area, and the intention is to give you a screen to manoeuvre behind, or to isolate something from supporting elements in depth.



One technique for maximising infantry fires whilst advancing is to use Assault, but to use the command correctly, with multiple waypoints and Target commands at each point:



The effect of this is that the non-moving element will be firing continuously, and the squad will continue advancing whilst still putting out as much fire as possible.

[domfluff]

Doctrinally, when they do dismount, the Soviet infantry do it 300m away from the enemy position (just outside short ranged AT fire such as the RPG or LAW, as well as effective small arms range).

If there's heavy AT defences (and Dragon counts as that), then the dismount range is 1000m (so outside medium AT range - Dragon or AT-7).

In practice, I think both are actually fairly suspect. Dismounting at 1000m is a good way for your infantry to be neutered to no great effect, and any momentum you have to be nullified. Even 300m is a bit hopeful, I think, and I think it's a good idea to exit as close as you can get away with, when you do so at all.

Dismounting shouldn't ever really be plan A, but it can be a useful plan B, and it's important to know how to get the most out of the platoon.

As ever with the Soviets, the mechanised platoon shouldn't be acting alone. They should be preceded by armour, and that armour should be preceded by artillery. The attack has to be an an all-arms affair if it's to have any chance of success.

[Simcoe]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

Doctrinally, when they do dismount, the Soviet infantry do it 300m away from the enemy position (just outside short ranged AT fire such as the RPG or LAW, as well as effective small arms range).

If there's heavy AT defences (and Dragon counts as that), then the dismount range is 1000m (so outside medium AT range - Dragon or AT-7).

In practice, I think both are actually fairly suspect. Dismounting at 1000m is a good way for your infantry to be neutered to no great effect, and any momentum you have to be nullified. Even 300m is a bit hopeful, I think, and I think it's a good idea to exit as close as you can get away with, when you do so at all.

Dismounting shouldn't ever really be plan A, but it can be a useful plan B, and it's important to know how to get the most out of the platoon.

As ever with the Soviets, the mechanised platoon shouldn't be acting alone. They should be preceded by armour, and that armour should be preceded by artillery. The attack has to be an an all-arms affair if it's to have any chance of success.

Fantastic rundown as always. Thank you.

[domfluff]

Just been re-thinking some of this:

 

Going by Battleorder - the CM squads seem to have taken the four man HQ element, and spread this throughout the platoon, including the SVD.

That means that the single-man HQ unit should probably stay in the lead BMP as a C2 link to the formation, and higher formations. On paper that should be the platoon sergeant, but I think this is functionally equivalent.

[Pelican Pal]

 

21 hours ago, Simcoe said:

Seems like it would just make the vehicle worse for the sake of an extra dismount.

I suspect that there is also a bit of CM bias operating. As far as I can tell each SL had a radio linking them to their respective BMP crew.

SL 1 -> BMP 1
SL 2 -> BMP 2
SL 3 -> BMP 3

In CM this sort of communication gets a bit of short shrift since it goes through the C2 system while all the men within a vehicle tend to share borg spotting.

Within a vehicle if the VC spots an enemy tank the rest of the crew pretty instantaneously knows where that tank is at. Even if, for example, the gunner is looking through a straw. Within the context of a dismounted BMP SL he has a radio connection to the crew and should be able to inform them pretty directly of any spotted targets but since, within the game logic, he is a separate unit he doesn't give the crew borg spotting just a spotting bonus.

 

Quote

The dismounted squad leader will have an R-392 or R-126 radio to communicate with the commander of the BMP-2 at shorter distances. The squad should be operating 800 meters away from its BMP at the most, though this obviously is dependent on the tactical situation as well.

The quote is referencing a BMP-2 but the R-126 radio entered service a few years before the BMP-1

Edited April 19, 2022 by Pelican Pal

[Simcoe]

1 hour ago, Pelican Pal said:

 

I suspect that there is also a bit of CM bias operating. As far as I can tell each SL had a radio linking them to their respective BMP crew.

SL 1 -> BMP 1
SL 2 -> BMP 2
SL 3 -> BMP 3

In CM this sort of communication gets a bit of short shrift since it goes through the C2 system while all the men within a vehicle tend to share borg spotting.

Within a vehicle if the VC spots an enemy tank the rest of the crew pretty instantaneously knows where that tank is at. Even if, for example, the gunner is looking through a straw. Within the context of a dismounted BMP SL he has a radio connection to the crew and should be able to inform them pretty directly of any spotted targets but since, within the game logic, he is a separate unit he doesn't give the crew borg spotting just a spotting bonus.

 

The quote is referencing a BMP-2 but the R-126 radio entered service a few years before the BMP-1

Ya that’s pretty unfortunate. Seems like the BMP’s primary role is a mobile cannon for area fire. It has a pretty tough time standing up to other AFV’s

[domfluff]

The dismounted squad does not have a radio. R-126 is man-portable, but is a company-level asset. The squad radio is the BMP itself.

As one example of a source, FM 100-2-3 (From 1991, but applicable to everything prior): 



 

[domfluff]

For the company level stuff:





The R-148 is what replaced the R-126. There will be five of them so that there can be one per platoon (one for the HQ, one for the MG platoon and one for each dismounted rifle platoon, carried by the platoon leader). The larger man-portable R-107 will be for communicating with higher formations and kept by the company commander, and obviously you have the extra radio gear in the company HQ BMP itself.

[Pelican Pal]

Ah okay, I found info on the 126 when checking some bugs with the Syrian C2 network. There were 2-3 locations that describe the 126 as being used by the squad leader with a separate radio in the track for communication with the platoon leader. Tankograd is the easily findable english language site the others were in Russian and tracking those done was a pain. IIRC there were also mention of R-147 and R-147(P) although those are 1970s era.

@Simcoe

If you check out https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2017/03/field-disassembly-bmp-1.html you can see the layout for the BMP-1 and that visually emphasizes how the Soviets intended the vehicle to fight, imo. If you notice the SL isn't in the turret but behind the driver so he isn't in a great place to spot targets/guide shots in for the gunner anyway.

He doesn't have a great view to his right and if he is turned out the gunner cannot rotate the gun to the left without endangering him. Additionally in a hull down position the SL won't be able to see above the berm.

----

Within CW I find the BMP-1 to be pretty unpleasant to fight against. It can give the M60s a run for its money in a lot of situations and combined with tanks can overpower a lot of yankee positions. E.G. 1-2 platoons of BMP-1 + a platoon of tanks is no 7-10 vehicles capable of killing armor.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Pelican Pal

[Simcoe]

2 hours ago, Pelican Pal said:

Ah okay, I found info on the 126 when checking some bugs with the Syrian C2 network. There were 2-3 locations that describe the 126 as being used by the squad leader with a separate radio in the track for communication with the platoon leader. Tankograd is the easily findable english language site the others were in Russian and tracking those done was a pain. IIRC there were also mention of R-147 and R-147(P) although those are 1970s era.

@Simcoe

If you check out https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2017/03/field-disassembly-bmp-1.html you can see the layout for the BMP-1 and that visually emphasizes how the Soviets intended the vehicle to fight, imo. If you notice the SL isn't in the turret but behind the driver so he isn't in a great place to spot targets/guide shots in for the gunner anyway.

He doesn't have a great view to his right and if he is turned out the gunner cannot rotate the gun to the left without endangering him. Additionally in a hull down position the SL won't be able to see above the berm.

----

Within CW I find the BMP-1 to be pretty unpleasant to fight against. It can give the M60s a run for its money in a lot of situations and combined with tanks can overpower a lot of yankee positions. E.G. 1-2 platoons of BMP-1 + a platoon of tanks is no 7-10 vehicles capable of killing armor.

Thank you for sharing!

makes me want a 79’ Soviet campaign to use more BMP-1’s

[Codreanu]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:48 AM, Simcoe said:

makes me want a 79’ Soviet campaign to use more BMP-1’s

A quick and dirty edit of the existing campaign doesn't seem like it'd be all that difficult, I've thought about doing it myself but haven't even beaten the '82 one yet after it kicked me in the pants. Not sure how much it would mess with the balance though.

[Simcoe]

16 minutes ago, Codreanu said:

A quick and dirty edit of the existing campaign doesn't seem like it'd be all that difficult, I've thought about doing it myself but haven't even beaten the '82 one yet after it kicked me in the pants. Not sure how much it would mess with the balance though.

Which mission did u get stuck on?

[Codreanu]

9 minutes ago, Simcoe said:

Which mission did u get stuck on?

The first one, after my FSE got annihilated by A-10s and AH-1s. Maybe it was just really bad luck because my MANPADS and Shilka dumped their entire load to no effect and then the enemy CAS just had a field day on them. I could have carried on with the rest of the battalion but after seeing that I needed a little break from it.