Spur of the Moment Complaining.

[NCrawler]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackhorse:

Gotcha CEO. I didn't realize at the time that your book was Nafziger. He (Nafziger) pretty much does TO&E research for a living.

So, I just reinforced what you had already stated <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah, George Nafziger is the man! Have both of his books and I would hazard to say that his information is probably 99.9% correct. Perhaps this MG fellow should invest the money and purchase his "German Order of Battle: Infantry in WWII."

Hey MG, in the book listed above, page 33, bottom right of the page, under the heading "Volks Grenadier Division, 1944-1945" you'll see a listing for the Fusilier Company. It lists the 1st and 2nd SMG Plt. Of course, it also states that they used bicycles, perhaps you should rag on BTS for not letting your men ride into battle on their Schwinn's...

[Ben Galanti]

Steve said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ben,

You mean Buchner, not Mechner, right? Or is this a different book?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I meant Buchner. It was getting late and my wife was telling me to get off the d**n computer I've corrected the post now though.

Steve also asked:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hey Ben,

I just realized you might have accidentally clipped out something just before this quote I take exception to that might explain him better. Could you do me a favor and quote the entire paragraph, or whatever is directly relevant to what he didn't include? Thanks!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I will post the full paragraph this afternoon. It was basically covering all of the units which didn't conform to the standard infantry pattern which is described in the book. You're right though, for fairness' sake, I should have posted it in it's entirety.

There does seem to be a lot of good information in it, it just isn't terribly relevent to the current discussion. For that matter, a lot of it isn't terribly relevent to the CM time period. It'll definitely be a good read for CM2 though.

[Ben Galanti]

Ok Steve, here's the full paragraph that I truncated before (I hope the copyright police don't come bashing down my door...). Again, from page 1 of Buchner's book:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>During the war there were, in all, 35 so-called "waves of establishment" of divisions. The last high "house number" was the 719th Infantry Division, but this is deceiving, as there were only 294 definitive infantry divisions during the whole war, a number of which were disbanded or turned into motorized or pursuit divisions. All other divisions were field training divisions (Feldausbildungdivisionen), gaurd divisions (Sicherungsdivisionen), permanent sector divisions (Bodenständige Divisionen), coast-guard divisions (Küstenverteidigungsdivisionen), replacement and training divisions (Ersatz- and Ausbildungsdivisionen) , so called "shadow divisions" and ad hoc units established in the last months of the war, which were scarcely or not at all representative of a normal infantry division.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He then goes on to list the number of divisions which took part in various campaigns in the war, and finally a TO&E for a 39 pattern infantry division.

The opening paragraph of Chapter 1 (two paragraphs above the one I just quoted) also states (in its entirety):

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The mass of the German army, and above all the field army, consisted in World War II, along with panzer divisions, motorized infantry divisions, antitank divisions (Jägerdivision), mountain divisions (Gebirgsdivisions) and such, of infantry divisions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, all misspellings are probably mine... I hope that helps.

[Guest Big Time Software]

The VG SMG Squad, as best I can tell, was not supposed to have MP44s. The TO&E specified SMGs specifically. Now, I suppose the planners thought, "gee, if we had enough MP44s maybe that would be a better thing to use" just as they might have said, "let's make all Panzer Battalions have all Panthers" in early 1944. In other words, the option was rulled out even though in theory it would have been a good thing to do.

The Pattern 45 Rifle Platoon was based on a mix of weapons. Off the top of my head it was roughly supposed to be:

1xSMG

1xLMG

3xKar98k

4xMP44

Again, they probably would have authorized 7 MP44s if they thought it was even remotely doable, but reality is a bitch sometimes In CM we have these squads, but reduced the MP44 count down to 2 and upped the Kar98k to 5 in order to refelct the overall shortage of the weapon and the abundance of the Kar98k.

Ben, thanks for the full quote. Well, I take back SOME of what I said about Buchner. It would appear that he didn't mention Pattern 44, Speer, Volksgrenadier, and Pattern 45 division types because they were simply different patterns of the standard infantry division. All of the ones he mentioned were abnormal, purpose "built" formations that were not standard line infantry.

So Buchner is not incorrect, but it is a bit misleading for him to not explain the progress of the line infantry division patterns. The reason why? Because people like the MG duo can get confused if they fixate on this one source too much. No slam here, just a statement of the record established a few pages back in this thread. "If it isn't in Buchner it isn't important" is just bad logic and research, so I can't really blame Buchner for that.

Steve

[TargetDrone]

Well.. guess that thread had at least one benefit.. new members like me, who don't have a vast source of literature to dig into have too learned some of that stuff... which doesn't mean i understood everything and all

but what the heck... maybe this thread makes it to get an entry in the guinnes book of records.. would be funny indeed

anyone knows what the longes thread in an interentforum was so far?

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-- TargetDrone

who doesn't want to draw attention...

especially from guys with big guns ...

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TargetDrone:

Well.. guess that thread had at least one benefit.. new members like me, who don't have a vast source of literature to dig into have too learned some of that stuff... which doesn't mean i understood everything and all

but what the heck... maybe this thread makes it to get an entry in the guinnes book of records.. would be funny indeed

anyone knows what the longes thread in an interentforum was so far?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here it was THE THREAD and I believe it has been resurrected on Lindan's website. His is part of the CM webring.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

And reading closely first time round saves editing later - d'Uh

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-06-2000).]

[JWorthing]

Hey MG guy,

wanna pbem? I'll take any side any setup

(default force balance preffered)

taruc@earthlink.net

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hehe... you guys are going to get a kick out of this. While I was waiting for something to process I picked up my copy of Gajkowski's "German Squad Tactics in WWII" that (for some reason ) happened to be on my desk. What should appear on the VERY FIRST PAGE I OPENED TO? This:

Section 6-A (page 13) "Coordination with other weapons"

"The close coordination of all arms presupposes close liaison and a prompt, mutual cooperation by all units. Succcess will be determined by the employment of all available combat means at the right time and at the right place. Every one, even the lowest noncommissioned officer, must clearly understand that only the careful coordination of arms will insure success.

Light infantry wepaons include all the weapons of the rifle company. Heavy infantry weapons include the heavy machine guns , the heavy mortars, the infnatry cannon, and the antitank cannon. In the attack the light infantry weapons are the attack weapons adn the heavy infantry weapons are the close-support weapons.

In combat the heavy infantry weapons must maintain constant liaison with the infantry units which they are supporting. They must quickly recognize and destroy or neutralize, hostile forces which are the most dangerous to the advancing rifle companies"

OK, so what do we learn from this? Well...

1. Cooperation between light and heavy weapons is critical.

2. Ligth and heavy wepaons must each be used CORRECTLY in order to achieve the desired end result.

3. HMGs are specifically listed as being heavy weapons, along with mortars, AT guns, and other big stuff. By definition that means they are not light weapons, and therefore not inteneded to be used in the same way as the rifle (squad) units.

4. The heavy weapons are there to ensure that the rifle platoons can advance. They are not supposed to advance with them during the attack, but instead pummel things that would otherwise give the assaulting infantry cause for concern.

This sums up the role of the HMG very well and supports everything I have said prior to this. The HMG is NOT a fast moving assault squad that goes up with the infantry, unless of course the PAK and mortars were also supposed to be fast moving assault squads too. Since the Germans classified all of these weapons in the same way therefore their purpose is the same as well. Rifle units (squads) go forward on the attack while the HMGs, mortars, PAKs, and Infantry Guns engange the enemy targets that are set up to hinder the squad's movements.

Pretty basic stuff really. It is also something that CM simulates VERY well. The player that understands that different weapons have different purposes, and therefore different associated tactics, will crush anybody who doesn't comprehend the combined arms concepts.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-07-2000).]

[Lindan]

Targetdrone: yes, the LOST THREAD (the server crashed) is partly reconstructed on my page. It went to 300something.

<hr>

A good book BTW is:

<font color=red>"Trollslayer"</font> by William King

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visit lindan.panzershark.com

member of the Combat Mision webring

[Lee]

Well, it seems as though Steve has made his points very well on both

SMG squads and HMG movement rates. And since no evidence to the contrary

is forthcoming, I guess that is that.