Guest David Harrison Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 I'm most intrigued by the operation battles that force you to think beyond your current battle. (I'm a big fan of the ASL campaign modules.) I haven't ordered CM yet but plan to after my new computer arrives in a few weeks. In the mean time could someone throw me a bone and give their impressions of the operations (without spoilers). Did they meet or exceed your expectations? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 No spoilers I've played one operation, and I thought it was a blast. I'm not exactly sure how the 'front line' is determined between battles, and it cost me on the first battle of an 'advance' operation (playing the defending side). I went for a defense in depth, and never even got the chance to engage before the battle was over and I was forced backwards out of my prepared position without firing a shot or receiving any incoming fire. I did better after that debacle, thank goodness! I like how the shell craters and knocked-out vehicles stay in place, and I like fighting for advantageous terrain rather than VP flags. If you think you get attached to your troopers in one 30-minute scenario, wait until the TD you have coaxed through three battles, and who has almost singlehandedly held off the Hun horde, finally succumbs to that blasted Panther crunching through the woods... Thumbs up from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer! Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 Soliloquy, Why did you have to leave your prepared positions if you were not even engaged? Were you outflanked and had to move back to straighten your line? I haven't played an Operation yet, but I will. I am curious as to this "had to move back" thing. Ober ------------------ "Them Yankees couldn't hit the broa..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy 4 Eyes Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 I have just completed the first battle of an operation and it does make you think more. I have been careful to move crew away from the battle and also have been taking more time in establishing positions. I am the defender in this case and with all the different units and troops I have had to really slow down to get good interlocking fields of fire... All in all it is very fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!: Soliloquy, Why did you have to leave your prepared positions if you were not even engaged? Ober <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I >think< what happened was that the Germans had moved most of their forces to the edge of my original deployment area. All I had at the front edge were some AT mines and a few bazookas that never had a chance at a clear shot. Thus when the battle ended and the 'front line' algorithm calculated the new deployment locations, the average front line was inside my orginal deployment area. Once the no-man's land was formed around this new line, I was forced to deploy my troops farther back at the start of the second battle. This only happened at the end of the first battle, before I had any grasp of how operations worked. After that, I was able to maintain a reasonably static front line. Although that valiant TD did get enveloped and ended up on its own deployment 'island'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 So Soliloquy, Between battles in an operation the computer "draws" new deployment areas with an area of no-mans-land in between, right? Reason I ask, I'm trying to piece together an operation in the editor and wasn't sure what that "no-mans-land" setting of 0 meters, 80 meters, etc etc did... Thanks Stoner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Stone: So Soliloquy, Between battles in an operation the computer "draws" new deployment areas with an area of no-mans-land in between, right? Thanks Stoner<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's how it seemed to work. The deployment areas I saw were wall-to-wall, with the front line being straight across. The enveloped area was a box roughly 100m on a side around an immobilzed TD, and was completely detached from the other deployment area. The battles started with the Germans pulled back a bit from their farthest advance. I would guess that the 0m, 80m, ... settings would push both the defender and attacker back farther and farther based on the front line algorithm. Play a op battle or two and you'll see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Got pushed back in an Operation for no reason at all. I had really good positions and the enemy hadn't advanced very much. I was holding a number of towns. The defensive line was firm, consisting of AT Guns and at least five platoons. The Americans were well back, only probing in a few spots. I had a good overview of the whole map and was aware of every possible route of advance. Next battle (night falls) all my troops are waaaay the hell back. All my really good ambush setups are gone but my foxholes are still observable (now way at the top of the screen). I thought this was very unrealistic and it bothered me after setting up such a secure position. It took me a long time to set up! What gives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 In general I love the operations and think they are probably the funnest part of the game. I have seen a few of the strange things occurring in some of the scenarios as described. It doesn't seem to occur in all the ops though. The biggest problem is there aren't enough of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 I don't think it would be as frustrating an issue if I could understand the reasoning/programming behind it... but it seems a mystery to me right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: Got pushed back in an Operation for no reason at all. I had really good positions and the enemy hadn't advanced very much... <snip> I had a good overview of the whole map and was aware of every possible route of advance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you really sure that is the case? From what I've been reading on the board, it seems that a flanking force that pushes past your front line can force that line WAY back for the second battle. Some people have even been losing on the first battle due to this (on one particular operation that will remain nameless). It may even be worth pulling a Manieri (just a joke, Cap'n!) and play that op without FOW to see where the opfor actually moved. [This message has been edited by Soliloquy (edited 06-30-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notnowjohn Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 David, Operations are the most intense, nail-biting, immersive aspects of CM, in my humble opinion. And Rick is exactly right, the only problem is that there are'nt enough of them. Well, there might be another problem in that the wife tends to get very icy after you spend 12 hours out of every waking day playing them! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 That's the thing though... no flanking force. Perhaps it had something to do with the direction everything came. If you look at the map as a square, the enemy came from the diagonal (and was expected to do so). My defence was setup that way too. It was the Operation where the Allies are trying with the 101st to secure the two beaches and link them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: If you look at the map as a square, the enemy came from the diagonal (and was expected to do so).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Was your new front line still diagonal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 No, the second battle (nightfall) had everything lined up with the square of the map. Not only that, but if you consider which side of my map got "pushed back" to straighten the diagonal, it was the spot where I had the bulk of my men and machines AND I was winning (the enemy had made only minor unsuccessfull probing actions). But it wasn't just that the line was squared out, it was squared out AND pushed back quite considerably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 Pillar, I think that might have been the problem, then. Are you sure that the opfor didn't have a bucketload of troops in the other corner of your line? like this: ----/G ---/GG AA/--- <-new center line A/---- /----- <-new front line (due to no-man's land) Make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Pattison Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 In this advance operation I've been playing, I've been doing exactly what Pillar has been complaining about. I advance my forces on a narrow front and the computer draws a straight line at the point of furthest advance and pushes the OPFOR out of the no man's land in between all the way across the board which I verified by looking at the map in the scenario editor. There appears to be no evaluation of whether the OPFOR's positions are untenable or not. Definately a gamey way to gain real estate. Other than that bizarre little glitch, the operations are a blast. [This message has been edited by Jeff Pattison (edited 06-30-2000).] [This message has been edited by Jeff Pattison (edited 06-30-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 It seems that the front line algorithm may need to be made a tad more sophisticated. It'd be nice if salients and 'bulges' would be possible. All I have seen so far are straight lines and enveloped boxes. Even so, I really enjoy the operations, and I hope scenario creators don't ignore 'em in favor of one-shot scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Pattison Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 I'm currently working on designing an Elsenborn Ridge Operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 That (Elsenborn ridge) seems like it would be cool for an operation, as would the Hill 310? from Mortain (the one you're trying to relieve as Yanks in Drive to Mortain IIRC). Then there's the Crete-based op in CM3? Or Chosin reservoir or Henderson airfield in CM5...? Have only finished one operation, and it was a draw (I was defending in an advance-type, doing pretty well, but didn't realize I should have advanced to win...duh). Amazing how precious your singular assets become in these ops, and how much you sweat as your last ATG or AFV engages a foe...wowza... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Pattison: I'm currently working on designing an Elsenborn Ridge Operation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gotta love the Bulge! Great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RudeLover: Or Chosin reservoir or Henderson airfield in CM5...?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do you know something I don't know or are you simply torturing me? CM5 will be Pacific/Korea? I'm drooling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 Only wishing out loud about CM5...search on PTO or something similar to see why this is not currently in the plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 I'm absolutely postive that the enemy had nothing to push back my defences. If they did, they should be forced to USE them first. I'd like a CHANCE to defend! I think that the whole idea of the computer deciding the front lines is bogus. WE as players should be able to withdraw on our own accord -- or stay put for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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