Goofy Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 I understand that in WW2 a spotter couldn't know EXACTLY when his rounds would fall but I seem to have times when I'll have a spotter get stuck on 1 minute for 2 or 3 minutes. I assume that the time is a guess but how close? I've had one get to 12 seconds and spend a turn waiting but nothing happens. Secondly, when I get mortar carriers or SPA why can't someone spot for them? If I ever get them into vis of a target they get killed pretty quickly, and SPA fares like it should in a tank fight, makes a nice fire! How do I get them into action in an indirect fire mode? That's the weapon they mount so that MUST have been the way they were intended to be used. ------------------ Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Hi... I humbly suggest that you read the manual pag 87 to 90 ... and also use the search function present in this forum. João Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goofy Posted August 24, 2000 Author Share Posted August 24, 2000 I have read those pages, that's not a question about mechanics, I'm looking for player experience with judging times. As far as targeting on map, the book talks about targeting with HQ units for mortars but my motorized mortars and guns don't seem to function that way, I assumed because they weren't organic to the inf formations. I'm trying to find out how to do that with "armor" units. ------------------ Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Did it for you ( The search )... was easy http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/009076.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/007187.html [This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 08-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Does anybody know if C&C for SP arty and mortors is in the works with a new patch. Dave ------------------ My front is pushed back.My right gives way.Situation Excellent! I am attacking! Ferdinand Foch 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 If it is not planed for a patch could someone tell us why? My point comes from being in SP mortors for 6 years. And the the first thing they told us is that we were not suposed to ever see the bad guys. And it is hard to do this when you have to see them to fire them. Dave ------------------ My front is pushed back.My right gives way.Situation Excellent! I am attacking! Ferdinand Foch 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveT: If it is not planed for a patch could someone tell us why? My point comes from being in SP mortors for 6 years. And the the first thing they told us is that we were not suposed to ever see the bad guys. And it is hard to do this when you have to see them to fire them. Dave <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If it is not done in a patch, I would hazard to guess that it has to do with the fact that C&C does not apply to vehicles, only infantry. Might be more of a programming task than one might think to change the basic behaviour of these units. Of course, if it could be done... ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb [This message has been edited by IntelWeenie (edited 08-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goofy Posted August 24, 2000 Author Share Posted August 24, 2000 Didn't these self propelled units have spotters like their non-motorized counterparts or a way to be assigned to a HQ unit? In a mech infantry unit the mortar carriers SHOULD work (vis-a-vie HQ) as well or actually easier than a leg infantry unit. After all, adding a radio etc would be easier than if you're having to carry everything by hand. ------------------ Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Well, I think the CM assumption is that if you have a SP gun firing indirectly, you just model that as an arty FO. I don't know enough about the gun elevations and such, is reasonable that a onboard 105 could fire indirectly? Now the Mortar HTs are a different point, since they obviously could fire on a CM size map. I know that was discussed in depth in a specific thread not too long ago. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 And no one nice enough exists too make HQ become FOs for SPA mortars. END OF THREAD.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goofy: Secondly, when I get mortar carriers or SPA why can't someone spot for them? If I ever get them into vis of a target they get killed pretty quickly, and SPA fares like it should in a tank fight, makes a nice fire! How do I get them into action in an indirect fire mode? That's the weapon they mount so that MUST have been the way they were intended to be used.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As far as SPA is concerned, there are a couple issues that would prevent them from being used on-board in an indirect fire mode. One is that the map might not be big enough to enable their minimum range requirement. But even more, artillery requires a surveyed site with aiming stakes in order to be used indirectly. This requires preparation time that exceeds the length of a CM scenario. I suppose that conceptually it might be possible to say that if an SPA begins the game on the map and does not move, it might use indirect fire as long as its minimum range requirement is fulfilled. But as someone has already pointed out, what would be the point of having self-propelled artillery on the map if the only way to use it is to leave it immobilized? Get an FO instead and leave the artillery off the map where it usually belongs in a small unit tactical game like CM. As far as the mortar carriers go, that is a slightly different case, I think, as I believe they were able to move and set up fairly quickly. The problem here seems to be a difficulty in implementing it within the game, as vehicles at present have no headquarters, and thus no spotting potential. We'll have to wait and see if this gets revised. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goofy Posted August 25, 2000 Author Share Posted August 25, 2000 Michael emrys said: . But even more, artillery requires a surveyed site with aiming stakes in order to be used indirectly. This requires preparation time that exceeds the length of a CM scenario. Michael, you don't believe that all of Europe was surveyed and staked for FO's do you? That's why you have spotting rounds and adjustment. With luck you have a decent map and some recognizable land mark to adjust from. I'm not asking whether to buy SPA or FO's, I'm trying to deal with how to use them effectively when a scenario I'm playing comes with them. As far as the historical end of this, I believe they'd have a jeep with a FO with the SPA or mortar carriers with a radio net ONLY for their own battery Call it a HQ or call it a FO! There should be some organic unit to serve the purpose. I don't know the programing aspects of this but that's why I a gamer and NOT a programer. I don't expect BTS to dance to my tune, I'm happy to be playing THEIR game! I'm just asking for other's experience on how to best employ what I'm issued. Of course I do know that they read these posts and maybe they will choose to address this! Hehehe! ------------------ Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goofy: Michael emrys said: . But even more, artillery requires a surveyed site with aiming stakes in order to be used indirectly. This requires preparation time that exceeds the length of a CM scenario. Michael, you don't believe that all of Europe was surveyed and staked for FO's do you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are a careless reader. What I said was that the *artillery* required a surveyed site with aiming stakes. If you don't know what that means, ask. Politely. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 OK lets drop SP arty,all though I do like the idea of being able to use them if they have not moved. But I still would like to know if it can be made to work so that sp mortars can fire with a spotter. If it is a programing thing fine, I would just like to know Dave ------------------ My front is pushed back.My right gives way.Situation Excellent! I am attacking! Ferdinand Foch 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elementalwarre Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 seems like a bug. at least, i hope it's a bug tried this in CM 1.04 - tell some FO to target something - when time to first shot (TTFS) is a minute or less, select the FO, then fast forward during action phase TTFS will decrease slower than elapsed time. how much slower depends on how much you use fast forward instead of play - if you fast forward through the entire turn, i've seen TTFS only shrink 4 seconds. once TTFS is wrong, doesn't matter if you rewind, select another unit, and watch the action phase using fast forward or not - TTFS remains wrong right, that's it, i can't believe such a glaringly obvious bug made it this far, how could you guys miss this when i first saw this it was hilarious. fast forwarding must make the FO recalculate, thus delaying the first salvo. yeah. uh huh. sure, that's it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacestick Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elementalwarre: seems like a bug. at least, i hope it's a bug <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I just checked this with an old PBEM file (also in 1.04) and it behaves the way it should-- it always ends up at the same time at the end of the turn, no matter how fast I FF. The movie is just a movie-- the calculation of the time happens during the execution (when the blue bar moves across the bottom of the display). Arty countdown isn't always 1 game second = 1 arty countdown second. If you are targeting outside the LOS of the spotter it's typically 1 sec countdown for two seconds game. There may be more variation to it, but I haven't been disturbed by anything to make me look closer. Until the shells are in the air the time is really just an estimate, based on the experience of the units involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacestick Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Yea Gads must learn to spell check before pressing submit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chrisl: I just checked this with an old PBEM file (also in 1.04) and it behaves the way it should-- it always ends up at the same time at the end of the turn, no matter how fast I FF. The movie is just a movie-- the calculation of the time happens during the execution (when the blue bar moves across the bottom of the display). Arty countdown isn't always 1 game second = 1 arty countdown second. If you are targeting outside the LOS of the spotter it's typically 1 sec countdown for two seconds game. There may be more variation to it, but I haven't been disturbed by anything to make me look closer. Until the shells are in the air the time is really just an estimate, based on the experience of the units involved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly, elementalwarre, what you are being given as a 'time until first salvo (not first shot, one or two of those arrive earlier) arrives on target' is merely an 'estimate' of reality, not a promise. The actual time taken, as opposed to the time you are told it will take, will vary depending on the FO's experience level, whether they have direct LOS to the target point, and other, more 'random' factors. You are not seeing a bug, you are seeing the difference between a 'promised' salvo, and when it arrives in reality. Unless I've completely misunderstood your post, but I believe I'm addressing the phenomenon you're describing. ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But I still would like to know if it can be made to work so that sp mortars can fire with a spotter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We are not planning on doing this. If you want to simulate indirect fire artillery have them be off map. Because prepared indirect firing positions would be well behind the likely combat zone, this is the realistic thign to do. Same is true for Infnatry Guns and Howitzers as it is for SPA. Simple as that Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Thanks Steve that is all I wanted to know.Like I said I did SP motars for a while and it would have been fun to use them like you should. But I do see your point. Dave ------------------ My front is pushed back.My right gives way.Situation Excellent! I am attacking! Ferdinand Foch 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BasilD Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Im sure its been said before, but the only reason the Big SPA guns are in the game as tactical pieces is to simulate breakthroughs, raids on Regimental HQ's stop gap forces etc. etc. In other words if those big guns are on map either somethings wrong or commanders felt they needed to throw everything into the fray. Still, a Hummel at 100 meters is a damn scary thing. Had a bazooka team try to take one out recently, he missed and suffered a severe case of dissolution in reply. At least the crater made a good hiding spot for my reinforcing squad. ------------------ As the victors define history, so does the majority define sanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elementalwarre Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seanachai: Exactly, elementalwarre, what you are being given as a 'time until first salvo (not first shot, one or two of those arrive earlier) arrives on target' is merely an 'estimate' of reality, not a promise. The actual time taken, as opposed to the time you are told it will take, will vary depending on the FO's experience level, whether they have direct LOS to the target point, and other, more 'random' factors. You are not seeing a bug, you are seeing the difference between a 'promised' salvo, and when it arrives in reality. Unless I've completely misunderstood your post, but I believe I'm addressing the phenomenon you're describing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> tried it again with an elite FO and direct LOS. you're right, my goof, elite FO's time didn't vary with fast forward - the prior green FO was just awful estimating time and of course estimated short. for a while there, i would've sworn the prior green FO was really a UFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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