ianc Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 Hi All, I'm a bit confused on checking LOS from various points that your units might be at. I've noticed that there is partial blockage of LOS from such terrain types as woods, scattered woods, and from within bldgs. Picture this, I want to advance an infantry unit through a bldg or a patch of woods to take up a firing position. I'll give them a crawl order, but how far should I order them to crawl so that I know they'll be able to see and fire out? If I don't order them far enough, they may not be able to engage when they get there until I order them forward again the following turn. Meanwhile, I've suffered a turn's delay without their firepower. If I order them too far, they may be needlessly exposed to the fire of more units than is necessary. Same thing for vehicles. I might want to order an AFV to take up a position and am wondering whether a tree line behind which it will be will be sufficient to screen its flank. I can check the LOS from the vehicle in its current position using the LOS tool, but since it's not in the new position yet, I can't check it there. I can move the camera to the new position to have a look, but the viewed LOS might be blocked by a tree graphic which actually doesn't present an LOS obstacle when the vehicle gets there (lost a Stug. like this last nite). I realize these questions may be dismissed as being too gamey by some, but it seems to me that in real life, it should be fairly obvious by inspection whether a particuar spot is exposed or not. Could be pretty important in MP... Any tips or tricks on these sticky conundrums? Thanks all, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 Well in real life even though I have a map even of very detailed scale, it's difficult and time consuming to figure out exact LOS unless I actualy go out here and see for myself. (It can be done using a topo map, a pencil and a protractor and a piece of paper but nobody is going to do that in battle.) This is very much a real world dillema, I can tell your sqaud to crawl fifty meters over there and you get there and low and behold there's something in the way and you have to readjust another ten meters. You already have the ability (I use it) to press key one and get down to gruts eye view and walk to the exact place you want to go to and look around and see for yourself. That's more than youw ould be able to do in real life and should be fine. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 5, 1999 Share Posted November 5, 1999 Hi Ian, Keep in mind that each turn is only 60 seconds. If your guys crawl to a space and are 10m too far into the woods to see out, then another 30-40 seconds to crawl into position is reasonable and realistic. For example, a tank commander is not going to know the *exact* position where it can fire at a particular location from 200m away, or even 50m away. Precision is something that takes time. This is something that other wargames simulate poorly, mostly because they aren't using a realistic LOS model for starters. Being able to pan around and use the LOS tool already gives you way more information than your unit should realistically have, so a partial turn penalty to scoot a unit to the exact spot where it can get the perfect shot is probably too kind Also, you can see roughly where you need to be by checking out where the LOS line breaks up. Note the different colors the line has depending on the degree of blockage. This can help you out a whole lot. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted November 5, 1999 Author Share Posted November 5, 1999 Thanks for the response guys, I'll buy it for the infantry, but I'm a little iffy on the AFV part of it, particularly since I think of lot of future scenarios, probably included, and certainly user-created, will involve lots of tanks, and their survival will be crucial to success. Entertain this real life scenario: The commander of a Stug has a treeline in front of him and another to his left with a gap where the two join. He'd like to drive to the gap and fire through it without actually driving through. He can see the treeline directly in front of him and immediately knows that he can't see through it, thus his flank will be secure, so he completes the maneuver. In CM, the tree graphic makes it appear that he can't see through from where he is, but since he's not actually there yet, he can't check it. The most he can do is gamble that it might and take his chances. Last nite at my house, this bought him a Hellcat shell in the side unfortunately. No more Wiener Schnitzel for our friend... The LOS tool works great, but it can only be used from your current position. In real life, a glance at an obstacle in your immediate view will be sufficient to tell you whether it's cover or not, but in CM where the tree graphic doesn't represent an actual tree, this is more questionable. Getting good firing positions is critical, but if you can't evaluate them properly without actually assuming them, it could be a problem... Thanks again, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Ian - the further away you are from something, the more difficult it is to evaluate it as possible cover. A tree line which looks like good cover from a few hundred meters away might actually be not so good when you come closer. The LOS tool as it is in the game right now does a good job IMO to simulate this. By the way, when you play around with CM a little longer you will find that you will be able to estimate cover and LOS without using the LOS tool. After several months of testing, I hardly use it at all, mostly to finetune positions to the meter (which also doesn't happen too often). Again, just as in real life, experience will help you in the game. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 I did what los suggested just a few hours ago in turn one of a PBEM Riesberg scenario as the Allies. It was my first go as the Americans so I scouted out the terrain. It was actually fun to zoom around at level one plotting moves. Move a unit to a tree line. Move again to that depression. Run across the open ground. and stop in that forest on the hill. I don't know how effective my orders were because I had a Sherman knocked out on turn 1. But at least it was fun. Damn you, Ron! I'll get you and your little 88 gun too! Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 How do you know that it isn't already knocked out?? I like the LOS also, getting down to the ground and scouting the terrain. I get a better feel for everything. Waiting for the next batch of Shermans guachi. PS How do you make those happy faces? ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 I posted my message above right after turn 1. Obviously, if the 88 had been knocked out, my Sherman would still be alive. I am posting this message after I plotted turn 5. To get happy faces all you do is type : and ) but put them right next to each other like this You can get frowny faces by putting : and ( togetther like this You can also make winks with ; and ) like this When the battle is over I would like to exchange intel with you. Exchanging tactics and what we could/could not see will, I think, help both of us in future PBEM games. Jason About the 88. There are 4 shell holes near the 88 if I am remembering correctly. I just checked and it is four. A rough LOS check shows them to be 2, 4, 5, and 9 meters from the 88. All I did was highlight a random unit and draw a LOS line to the foxhole and measure from there. Jason [This message has been edited by guachi (edited 11-06-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Ianc: Plot a movement to, say, the back side of a small rise. Leave the track selected, and at the same time go to View 1 and move out aways from the spot where your path ended. Now turn around and see how much of your last waypoint box is still exposed- this can help give an idea how much is hangin' in the breeze. You can then readjust your last waypoint marker accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Well, my 2 cents is I don't have this problem too much with AFVs because the can always use the "HUNT" command. Only time I have the problem of moving too far is when I plan on using 'area fire' as soon as my LOS is clear. With infantry though I have had quite a few squads keep on crawling after they had a nice good LOS and they were 'targeting' the other unit. Maybe a "HUNT" command for infantry or more 'hunt-like' behavior for infantry when they have a target assigned? ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 Scott, I gave your idea a quick thought or two and it sounds good to me! I've passed it on to Charles. It's up to him now Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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