Guest phoenix Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 So I'm playing as the US for the first time in and am trying to "mop up" the remaining German units with my tanks. Stupid me doesn't realize that the M18 have no "internal" machine gun, so my guys are running around trying to fire their remaining AP rounds at the targets they can see. Huh? AP? At infantry units? Why? The tank is buttoned for defensive reasons automatically so they can't engage with the .50 But I still don't get it. Anyway, I decided to move into some open ground for safety sake and wait. Not figuring I'd take any real attacks I wasn't worried since all the German AFV's were toast. Well imagine my surprise when Mr "SS Motorized Infantry" shows up and *CHARGES MY TANK* What the fuhhh? I watch as two separate units try to corner my tank. They throw grenades at it.....I sit in disbelief. I'm in open ground, so are they. Next turn I order the tank to run like hell to another open area where it arrives and sits. But wait...here comes one (of the same?) unit after my tank!!!! There's ONE soldier showing on the screen, and he is charging my buttoned tank, in OPEN ground, full speed!!! At 10 meters he stops and "attacks". http://home.pacbell.net/eastrup/images/assault1.jpg Now if you look at this unit display you see that it says he has an MP44. That's IT! Is he (they?) seriously attacking with a sub machine gun? (Note, I was playing with FOW on so I can't be sure he didn't have grenades, but he never did use them if he did) Well...there's no effect, and I watch as my gunner crank down the main gun to attack this pest! http://home.pacbell.net/eastrup/images/assault2.jpg He fires AP at the unit. The unit gets annoyed and runs off. Mean while my tanks turret tracks him and repeats 3 more shots of AP at him. Why? Is it just me, or is it unlikely a unit armed with small arms would not likely charge an AFV in the open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 I've never seen this happen, but grenades have to be chucked at a close distance. Sounds like those SS boys were feeling lucky Also, since they are on the attack they are more likely to go after stuff like that. As far as their weapons are concerend, the graphics are more or less representational. For example, a 3 figured SS PzGren squad has 4 different weapons available to it (MP40, MP44, MG42, Kar98k). Since we can't show all four, we can only show three max (and with casualties less). If you have the highest degree of spotting you can pull up the unit report and see what weapons the unit in fact has. Sounds like the unit lost its Panzerfausts in the battle. VERY lucky for you Yes, tanks will fire whatever they have left when they are ordered to fire, even if all they have is AP. On their own they sometimes will. Yes, the .50 can not be fired while buttoned up, and a vehicle will NEVER unbutton by itself. Plus, the M18 had a terribly small supply of .50 ammo. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 I had an SS Mot troop do the same thing to me. However, he chucked a grenade right through the open top and took me out. Taught me a lesson Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 This is why I love CM so much. The most amazing things always happen. Phoenix. These SS troops were trying to throw grenades into the M18. If they had landed just ONE grenade ur tank would be toast. As for the tank firing AP. It must have been out of HE and in that kind of life or death situation I can well imagine them firing whatever they had at hand. IMO you are lucky the tank survived. In that battle, believe it or not the infantry had a better chance of killing you than you did of killing them. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest phoenix Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Ok...but is it really realistic for this unit to be chasing an AFV around on foot? In the open??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Phoenix, I'd say yes, it is realistic, so long as none of the rest of your infantry, etc., were shooting at them, then what is to stop them from going after your prized tank? And like Fionn said, they probably had a better chance of taking the tank out in a one on one confrontation under the circumstances you've described than the tank taking them out. Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Phoenix: You ever notice all those photos from the war where there is a tank and it's surrounded by friendly guys on foot? Now you know why they were there. Even in the case of the Sherman, which has lots of nice machine guns, an AFV by itself can be terribly vulnerable to a determined infantryman with a satchel charge or a Molotov cocktail. He can lay low until the tank passes then jump out. Even if the tank commander has his head out and spots him, it may not be possible for the tank to bring a gun to bear before the damage is done. In situations where your armor is closing with enemy infantry, especially if there is any kind of cover for them, you need to organize your forces in combined arms teams with friendly infantry. The tanks support the infantry by providing lots of firepower. The infantry support the tanks by spotting possible enemy positions and by acting as "bodyguards", picking off those sneaky Panzerfaust dudes. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Meier Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Steve and everyone else, Didn't I see somewhere that you put in a 20% chance of "fanatism" (spelling?) in one of the scenarios... Could this be an example of it happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 "Ok...but is it really realistic for this unit to be chasing an AFV around on foot?In the open???" It sounds like an assumption that a tank should not fear infantry. The real point I got from your report was that a tank was sitting alone with no infantry support and was attacked by enemy infantry. Well trained infantry would view that situation as a perfect opportunity to take out the bastard and if they were able to move and attack it in the same turn then they certainly weren't too far away to make the attempt. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Ron, I can't remember if I made the Germans in Last Defense have a chance of being fanatics. I *did* for Riesberg for sure. But yes, this would make units more likely to do brave things like what happened to Phoenix. As Los said, if the infantry saw a chance like this they would take it. I rememeber an account of a US soldier, after seeing pretty much his whole platoon killed by a Tiger (building collapse) CHASING the thing down the street with a Bazooka. He rouned a corner, saw there were troops there, fired from the HIP!! sent the rocket through a trooper (ugh) and hit the front of the Tiger. It didn't hurt it, but that was the last they saw of it for a while. So yup, the strangest things happen Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Phoenix I also have pictures (as I'm sure many others do) of Elefants and Tigers on the Eastern front who died HARD !!! I can show you one in which an entire Soviet platoon died charging towards a Tiger. There's a little ditch they obviously hid in and then about 150 metres away there's a Tiger knocked out. At the lip of the ditch there's one or two dead. As you near the tank there are more and more Soviet dead and the concentration of dead thickens. The thing that sticks in my mind is that the German TC is up there in the turret of the tank dead. Obviously he died firing a pistol or MG at the Soviets AND the front hull and engine decking of the tank are literally covered in Russian dead. The rear of that tank has about 2, maybe three LAYERS of dead infantry on it. There's more Soviets scattered to the immediate front and rear of the tank. They lost at least 100 guys killing that Tiger (hell there must be about 30 within 10 metres of the tank and on it) but you know what, that was what passed for a great victory on that front in that war. Once an entire Fallschirmjaeger regiment went into battle with only Panzerfausts and thrown AT charges (basically you run up to the tank and threw the charge onto it , ducked and then killed the crew as they bailed out)... I forget the exact figures but it was at least a tank regiment (something like 100 tanks with supporting infantry) attacked into their positions. Less than one HALF of one platoon of Germans survived but they stopped that Soviet attack dead by destroying the tanks and infantry with grenades, mines, anything and everything they could use. So, I'd have to say that attakc on the Hellcat was understandable. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonFox Posted November 4, 1999 Share Posted November 4, 1999 I don't view what you describe as at all out of the ordinary. The M18 is not a tank, it is an open topped tank destroyer. It is a sitting duck to any close infantry assault even with grenades unless protected with infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted November 4, 1999 Share Posted November 4, 1999 Fionn, Can you post that picture of the Tiger and the Soviet infantry? I'd be very interested in seeing that! Dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 4, 1999 Share Posted November 4, 1999 Probably. I know I have it in one of my armour books. I'll go looking.. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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