therontmoore Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 I would like to know how you can set up a sequential ambush? For example, I know a German armored column is coming down a forest road in a hurry; my troops are on one side of the road hiden from view. My plan would be to ambush the whole column by having most of the column enter the kill zone and at a certain point have the lead vehicle taken out, then the rest of the ambush happens in sequence from that point. How can this be done in CM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 I would post guys hiding on the side of the road, aimed at ambush markers put back in the woods, or, if you don't trust the guys to not be spotted, out of sight in the woods, and one guy further back aimed at an ambush marker in the road. Once the guy ambushing the road takes out the lead vehicle, manually target the others with the guys in the woods. Of course, I wouldn't trust my enemy not to sweep the woods with infantry, so I likely wouldn't do this in the first place... -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pham Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 An ambush question I have is can any unit be triggered into action by an enemy hitting an ambush marker? Can offboard artillery or air strikes(not sure how they're handled) be triggered by an enemy unit walking on an ambush marker, or is it just for direct fire units? Also, is there any way to have units move after an ambush is triggered? If I am holding two tanks behind a hill and a platoon in the woods off to the side of the front of the hill, can I place an ambush marker in front of the hill that will trigger the platoon to open fire *and* will have the tanks roll forward to engage, or are ambush's just for shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Theron, Simply have all the vehicles target one ambush marker (set at the location where you want the lead vehicle killed). When the time comes they won't all target the lead vehicle but will choose the juiciest and nearest targets. I've been able to recreate an ambush of a 24 vehicle long Allied column (almost 800 metres long) in which by using just the one ambush marker my tanks opened fire along the whole length of the column. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Damn good questions, Pham. I suspect that the answer to the "ambush and move" question is "no." Having triggered movement would add a whole 'nother layer to the TacAI. Plus which, purists may feel that it makes the control structure too automated if you have the TacAI doing not just reaction to enemy fire, but engaging in pre-planned movement. Maybe for CM(1+x). As for the "artillery ambush target" I think that would be a great feature, but would only work with mortars and other weaps with very short reaction times. Consider an armored column moving down a road toward an ambush marker; targeted on that marker is a FO for some heavy arty. The column hits the marker, and the FO makes the fire call. Then the column moves off the marker further down the road, and the arty is now off-target. You could counteract this by retargeting SLIGHTLY each turn after the FO makes the call; however, you might run into a situation where the time delay incurred by adjusting the fire means that the arty never actually arrives. You'd be chasing the enemy all over the map with a perpetual 30-second delay (or whatever) showing in the FO's TOT window. However, if you planned REALLY good, you could hit the lead vehicle, killing it and throwing the others into confusion (as happened in the Fionn/Moon game) and have the arty targeted to hit right after that. GLORIOUS. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Pham, nope, offboard artillery can't be triggered by tripping an ambush marker but you can easily time it to arrive at the time the enemy hits the marker (or close to it)., I've done that myself a few times. No you cannot tie a movement order to an ambush marker. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Can you target an ambush marker you can't see? I kinda didn't think so, and if not, the one ambush marker bit doesn't work for the forest road... As for the movement tied to the ambush marker, far more useful, I would think, would be having your tank in a nice hull down position for the ambush, then taking a couple shots and backing off when it's triggered... which will happen anyway if the tac ai decides what you're shooting at is a sufficient threat. Which leads me to another question... how easy is it to spot tanks that haven't moved? We don't really get a good judge of this in the demo scenarios, because no one has any tanks on defense, and it's hard to judge in the starting positions. I've managed to hide two Shermans from the 88 in Riesberg hull-down (I think) in the ditch by the side of the road. But that's about 800 meters, hull down, and maybe in scattered trees too. The AFVs in the back in LD, at least, are easily spotted by the mortars, so it would seem that hull down makes an enormous difference, and I would guess that trees do too. But what ranges are we talking about with these armored ambushes? -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Poeple need to remember that in an ambush it isn't necessary for all your units to open up at the exact same moment. In fact, it is not necessarily realistic for this to happen. There are several things you can do to ensure that something like a column is wiped out. Fionn mentioned a few. It might take 10-15 turns to completely do the job, but that too is realistic if the ambushed forces are in great numbers. John, what you can do is make other ambush markers to the sides of the road. Then what happens is when the colum gets shot up, and guys bail out, they will move to cover AND your ambush markers I've done this and it works great. Guys bail off tanks and go to the edges of the road, only to trigger more ambushes. If you don't have markers there, make sure your guys are in positions where LOS is ALMOST on the road. This way the enemy troops will hit the natural TacAI reactions from your guys once LOS is established. In short, Ambush Markers are not supposed to give you pinpoint, mathematical precision regarding ambushes. Instead, they are supposed to act as the catalyst. Don't forget that ambushes are often as confusing and uncoordinated for the attacker as well as the defender. Hide command will help conceal an AFV. In dense terrain, in Hide mode, an AFV is hard to spot. The scenario editor can also allow the defender to dig in vehicles too. Germans learned this trick from the Soviets and used it from time to time, but not that frequently because if the position was overrun, the valuable vehicle was lost for good. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 It's hard... Generally after 30 seconds or so you can tell where the enemy is firing from. E.g. "That ridgeline over there" and after a bit more time when the shock wears off you'll begin properly identifying the tanks etc... Of course, in any good ambush by the 2nd minute most of the killing is done and the ambushers should be pulling back into a new position. Damn Steve, I use that tactic, Was hoping to spring it on some of these guys. Have tanks fire from the right side of the road from 500 metres or so and have some schrecks and loads of dismounts to the left of the road (in some trees really close to the road). As the enemy infantry spill out and crews run for cover and enemy tanks create smoke and back away from your guys to the right they will trigger your infantry and schrecks and suddenly a flurry of fausts, schrecks, grenades and rifle fire flashes out and the enemy are in huge trouble. Ambushes are lots of fun... I've made an ambush scenario for the game which shows just how quickly a column of tanks can be chewed to pieces by a well-organised ambush. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Ok, that makes sense. I was sorta getting at that with my original post, but, of course, failed to take into account the natural reaction of the ambushee... Your answer on the tank hiding question is frustratingly vague, though, of course, i suppose it depends on conditions, and I'll just need to play the game a bunch and get a feel for it. -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 17, 1999 Share Posted December 17, 1999 Yup, vauge because it aint's so simple There are lots of factors that go into spotting. There is no "if in x value is y" calculations here, so I can't give you an easy, imperical answer. You just have to use gut feelings and experience to determine the best spot. The way to look at it is this... If you want to do an ambush, you put your stuff (tanks are only one element) in the best possible positions that take cover and fields of fire into consideration. If these turn out to be bad positions, your ambush will not be effective. So you have to learn what is good, and what is bad, and yet there still will always be the chance that you are wrong (as opposed to other games where you can be always right if you figure out the math). And that is totally realistic The single best piece of advice I can give you is to use blocked LOS to the greatest advantage. The longer the enemy unit is in sight of your ambush position, the greater the chance that they will spot you. For example, it would be tougher to ambush a tank moving over open fields from 3000m away than it would to whack a tank coming around a blind corner on a densely wooded road. Like I said, vehicles that are stationary and using "Hide" (plus they can now Ambush on their own) will be much harder to spot in an ideal ambush spot. The degree of cover though is still subject to all sorts of other factors, so the more you minimize those (like LOS stated above) the better. So using Hide in an exposed spot won't help much! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Brown Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Fionn, Your ambush scheme sounds good, except for the fact that, in real life, your infantry commander is likely to tell you to eff off at the high port. I've made this point before, that on the battlefield, commanders at CM level generally spend more time thinking about how not to shoot their own troops than they do about engaging the enemy. Of course, CM is a game and the player should be able to do any damnfool thing that he wants to. Setting up an ambush such as you describe, with the tanks firing through the enemy into the friendly infantry is clearly possible. It is, however, unlikely to be considered seriously by a battlefield commander unless the terrain was particularly favourable. Troops just don't like being shot at by their own side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Andy, Fionn's tanks had better not overshoot, because he will find out exactly what you are talking about Remember that misses are tracked! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Andy, Yup, it does sometimes happen actually. BUT, on the whole, I find that it is well worth it since a couple of friendly fire casualties is a small price to pay for a full company of tanks and infantry. Worst I ever lost was 5 men when a couple of 88 shells exploded in the midst of one of my platoons as the Tigers pounded away. It's like the perennial problem of how closely do you follow your own arty. Too close and you suffer some losses, too far behind it and the enemy can recover before you hit them. I'm one of the "follow it closely" school. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 I learned that the hard way some time ago, in a slightly different situation but nevertheless just as painful. Let me just say this much: don't put your infantry cover too close to one of your AT Guns. As soon as the AT Gun opens fire and is spotted, you can expect a lot of lead coming its way. As it happened, I lost not only the AT Gun, but the guts of a rifle squad and an MG team to a hail of tank and artillery fire, about six turns into the game... ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Brown Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Fionn, This is one of the themes I intend to develop next year, but basically... There is an enormous difference between risking the odd casualty from an impersonal friendly artillery bombardment in order to close with the enemy before he can recover from it and deliberately deploying into an area which you know friendly troops will soon be engaging with direct fire for all they're worth. Additional worry for the infantry commander: How will the tanks know us from them? I await the release of the gold demo to see exactly how CM's blue-on-blue routines work. (This is not a limited visibility situation). Additional worry for the tank commander: Watch out for friendlies near the kill zone. The guys that cause blue-on-blue cas usually feel as bad about it as they guys they shoot. (Especially significant in campaigns/operations/whatever they're called. Guy goes into the next firefight thinking about the friendlies he banjoed in the last one - there's a good chance there for reduced effectiveness) I'm not saying it isn't possible. I'm not saying there're not troops somewhere crazy/dedicated enough to do it BUT deploying infantry in this manner immediately places those troops under morale pressure which should be considered. CM, like every other wargame before it, doesn't consider morale until the shooting starts. This is definitely a situation where Major Kelly would be expected to lead by example. Even then, if anyone did follow him, I wouldn't count on them doing anything irrational like not hugging the ground to escape the fire they KNOW is going to be coming their way. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 LOL Andy, Major Kelly would be sitting in the deepest foxhole on that side of the road leading by example. It'd be necessary as you say. I should make clear that I'm not talking about setting up an infantry ambush within 10 metres of the road or anything. I'm talking about being at least 50 metres from the road and more usually 100 metres from the road. It is the movement of the infantry and tanks on the road AWAY from the tanks to their right and towards the infantry on the left which will seal their fate. 50 metres is distant enough to give a little safety. I did once put infantry within 10 metres of a road in woods just for fun. When the first US tank brewed up one of my green infantry squads nearby became SHAKEN . So, when I was talking about being on the roadside I meant being not right beside it but a little ways away. Sitting right beside roads in CM is not a smart thing to do In fact, bunching up in obvious places in CM is one of those things you only do once . After your first mass slaughter you learn ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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