How constructive/considerate are forum messages?

[maxm2]

I am responding to some of the irritated comments on the "Gamey Tactics" thread. Actually, I think the thread has been pretty restrained on a possible Hot Topic, but I just had some thoughts.

I'm a psychologist and am subscribed to several email lists for psychologists and mental health workers. In these supposedly "professional" lists I have watched ad hominum (personal) attacks launched, flame wars ensue, and the whole list become paralyzed--not once, but (too) many times.

In contrast, with a couple of minor exceptions, the last couple of months of participation in this forum has been relatively non-aggravating for me. The management has often stepped in to comment when things got heated, and has generally not been attacked for doing so. Threads have been locked when necessary, which I think is an excellent way to handle things, and I have been impressed with how this generally cuts off pointless (and escalating) debate.

As we all know (I hope) forms of email make it incredibly easy to become less than considerate and dash off an outrageous or hurtful comment. I've done it several times, and been upset many times, and I feel like I'm finally learning (after years) how to avoid irritating others pointlessly & getting too easily irritated. Odd how it's so easy to talk about other people we don't know as jerks or ignorant, and then feel so wounded or angered when someone does the same thing to us...but that's the way it is.

I suspect this forum contains people of all ages and backgrounds. For the general tone to be as good as it is, that's an achievment. I know that none of this may make much difference to someone who feels attacked or has been slighted in all the careless ways we may do so in forums like these. I think I understand Fionn's point of view when he becomes impatient, after putting great effort into being careful about sources, etc., to be challenged in offhanded and sometimes silly ways. At the same time, as a casual participant, I just wanted to say: it can be a lot worse. Ignoring silliness, although it ain't easy, takes care of a lot. You don't HAVE to go on record every time someone says something less than brilliant. Comments really do speak for themselves, and most people will see where the reasonable point of view is.

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Max Molinaro

[Huron]

I can readily attest to how easy it is to misunderstand and get upset on a forum. Since Fionn's post came directly after mine, I thought he was directing Flak at me among others. But knowing I'm no degenerated, pig-headed two-year-old moron (yes, I know, paraphrasing, but I was just a bit surprised by the post, showing up there and then), I re-read it and my thoughts cleared.

I also feel this forum to be an achievment, easily the best board I've attended on the net. At heart, I'm a lurker, but the tone and spirit here has made me come forward a bit more than usual from the anonymous void of the net.

There's something else I've been thinking of about board environments. Americans have this expression they use from time to time: "That's just one man's opinion". I believe it's a common enough phrase in discussions for you, with no hidden meaning, but the first few times I read this I found it derogative and took it personally. At least here in Sweden, there's few situation where you could use an phrase like that without belitteling the other. Americans (and others?) seem to use it quite frequently and casually. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Now, I find this phrase to be a good motto to keep in mind at forums and boards. That's what a discussion really are, opinions, and even the fact-arguments sometimes comes down to an opinion on what or who to believe.

Finally, a comment on the Panzerfaust thread. Philosophically, it's impossible to prove a negative statement. After all, that's what keeps up the hope of all those UFO-people. Try and prove that UFO's doesn't exist...

Huron

[This message has been edited by Huron (edited 12-09-99).]

[Rommel]

Yea we all read posts that make us mad, but I think we have something really very in common with each other on this forum.

WE WANT THE GAME !

hehe but also we are all persevearing to get a historically accurate account of weapons, tactics and men from WW2, so even when we read something that makes us mad, we keep it in check.

Or theres the iron whip of Fionn which also does the job.

[Dar]

I've been impressed by the level of restraint and maturity that most people have displayed on this forum in general. It's tough enough to try to communicate conflicting opinions and views through a text-only medium, but when you consider how many nationalities are represented on this board in which English is not their native language, it's even more challenging. I do have to commend the majority of the posters here for being so well behaved.

I can't, however, look at anyone involved in these recent flames and say, "X is obviously a victim here," because there is a lot of give-and-take on this board. There are some serious egos at work and I'm really getting tired of this "I've read it, therefore it's true" or "I've experienced it, therefore it's true" being expressed along with a personal attack on someone. There's a real lesson to be learned here by many in having some tact and not saying "you're wrong and I'm right!" with every dissenting opinion but rather something along the lines of "I don't agree and here's why."

Dar

[Los]

I have to agree with Dar, It's inevitable that a disagreements, misinterpreted jibes, and the occasional flames will develop. However it almost seems as if since everyone has the best interests of CM in mind (meaning getting out the best possible product) and flames seem to die down pretty quick.

If this was usenet or any number of other BBS I've seen, this forum would have long ago degraded in to a place of such malice that it would not have even been worth checking any more. SO I'll extend my thanks to everyone right now!

Los

P.s. regarding the note on how proffesional lists often degrade into the same morass, it reminds me of a point I hold to be true. Intelligence does not confer in and of itself any type of social skill or grace or ability to work together or get along together. That's something your mom and dad teach you!

I'd rather work with a person of lessor intelligence but who's likeable, personalble and can get along with people than some Mensa plankholder who happens to be a complete asshole. You can get stuff done with the former...

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Yes it is true that we all have CM best interest at heart.

The problem is that some beleive that ONLY they know what is good for CM. While the rest of us are clueless fools...and then continue to say so repeatedly.

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Fionn]

I'll post here to this thread since it might just effect some change.

1. My comments in that thread were not aimed at that thread. I had made an offer in that thread, then I read the faust thread and came across some comments which so disgusted me that I decided I didn't want to give any more of my time to CM anymore and so I posted to the "Gamey tactics" thread withdrawing my offer as I don't want to give any more of my time to this board or CM-related things arising from this board.

2. Maxm2, very well put. I DO get exasperated when people refuse to sit down and debate facts but somehow believe that their virtually unsupported assertions should carry some weight. I'm used to getting facts, referencing them and then presenting them. I do so in response to posts on this forum but every so often someone, like Howardb did recently, sits there, becomes very much "in your face" and impolite, refuses to present hard, verifiable data to back up their viewpoint and when I tell them that without hard data their viewpoint isn't really worth much (insofar as changing a game on the basis of their unsupported word goes) gets angry and abusive.

It doesn't surprise me that Howard was in the army. For some reason I've come across a lot of soldiers who think that screaming at people in the absence of the presentation of good hard facts will get them their way. (Not all soldiers thankfully but a lot of the younger privates and lower-level NCOs seem to think shouting and assertions of their opinion in angry tones is proof sufficient for almost anything.)

3. Maxm2, I don't go on the record every time people make mistakes. In fact, I've only disagreed with a couple of things in the past week. It's interesting that both of those things where I disagreed with people they ended up getting somewhat enraged that I wouldn't agree with them. If I wanted to I could point out masses of flaws in a lot of posts but I don't since I am choosing to only point out flaws when people are specifically asking for changes to the game which I think are unwarranted.

4. As for ignoring silliness. Let me quote this post made earlier today:

"Ha ha, Pionn is such a hypocrite. He screams to "bring me some proof". And yet, when I asked HIM to do the same once he just bobbed and weaved as he’s doing yet again.

Well, I supposed every BUS has to have it’s pompous ass. Now don’t anyone go pointing out any of this to Pionn, he’ll try to frame what you’re saying as some sort of “conspiracy” theory, even when one wasn’t remotely alluded to-his way of avoiding the facts.

Notice how reacts when anyone challenges this “Historical Manager”? Not very stable, I’d say.

Don’t worry, I laughing about it and you should too. Laughing at our own little leprechaun."

This is from Schrodi, a guy who made fun of the North of Ireland (where I've lost family), publicly accuses me of mental instability, calls me a drunk etc. He has done ALL of this on this forum and he has gotten away with it EVERY TIME.

Only a VERY few people have had the guts and decency to publicly say his behaviour was uncalled for when he did so. Steve, IMO, hasn't dealt with Schrodi harshly enough and I don't mind saying that we exchanged heated emails over this since I felt very strongly when Schrodi first posted that I wasn't protected (in the same way that I feel EVERY forum member should be protected) from his type of baseless, personal abuse.

Today Howardb got all in my face etc. That's fine. I now certainly have an opinion about Howardb and the desirability of ever trying to respond to any of his posts using evidence (since he has dismissed the need for methodologies etc multiple times) but that's fine. He obviously hates me whilst I merely think he's another person who doesn't understand the need for careful proof, research and referencing. That's fine, we can both think what we want about one another since while we both got annoyed at the other we never went totally overboard and it was one of those fights which would be forgotten with the passage of time.

The reason I decided to quit this forum was Schrodi and his ilk.

I see absolutely NO reason that I should have to be subjected to his kind of vitriolic nonsense. If he said this to me in public and in person I could have him prosecuted for it. I think the least that should happen on-line is that some action be taken to prevent him continuing on in this vein.

One other thing I noted and which greatly dissapointed me in the group was the lack of comment by others stating that his behaviour was unacceptable. This led me to ask if this group of people is really the sort I want to devote this much time to..

The answer, in the absence of any call for action against Schrodi's types of stupid and unwarranted attacks and in the absence of poster statements that his sort of behaviour is unacceptable here is that NO, THIS IS NOT A PLACE I CARE TO BE ANY MORE !

Remember, that this is not the first time I've had people post purely to attack me and be personally abusive. If you check the initial thread with Schrodi you'll see I merely misunderstood a question, when I figured out what he was asking I answered it but it was too late to stop his rabid, vitriolic crusade.

Quite frankly, I don't think anyone else on this forum has been attacked and personally attacked as much as I have and I'm sick of it. I also think FAR too many people sit there all smug and safe behind their computers willing to disagree with things I write without being willing to do ANY research when called upon to do so to prove THEIR point. Howardb's response when asked to prove schrecks could run was telling. "No, you prove they couldn't." As we all know the burden of proof lies with him if he wants something changed BUT his answer was akin to what I see toddler's doing, "You prove it.", "No, you prove it."

If you want a change then come with evidence and prove it. it's not a hard concept to grasp. Insisting that you need evidence isn't being intolerant or abusive it's simply being realistic. If you can't handle that then please don't post in the first place.

Anyways, my basic point is, I've been attacked time and again on this forum. I've had personal abuse hurled at me by people like Schrodi. I've had intransingents like Howardb be completely unreasonable in the face of a simple request for evidence to back their claim etc and then become angry and insulting.

Quite frankly I'm sick of it. Guys like Howardb are part of the rough and tumble and while I don't like it I can deal with it BUT so long as people as unwarrantedly abusive as Schrodi are around I am not going to bother with the rest of this forum. Hell, I think you should ALL realise that ALL THE TIME I take to answer these posts is time I give freely.

Even if you don't agree with me you should be bloody grateful I take it upon myself to answer all the questions and try TIME AND AGAIN to gently correct people who are way off base.

Asking me a question and getting an answer is a PRIVILEGE and not a bloody right. Some people are taking liberties simply because they don't agree with my answer. Well, they needn't worry about getting an answer anymore.

Check my posting record I've done 1631 posts. I bet I've done as many, if not more as Steve. I've had fights with a total of about 10 people out of about 1500 posts and yet whenever I do SOME people (and generally it's the same people which is interesting to me) feel free to come down on me and tell me I have no right to answer back to someone who is being abusive.

Frankly the fact that guys like Schrodi can come on and post abuse without repercussions sickens me, the fact VERY few people will tell them they are wrong to do this and demand some action sickens me and the fact that people get all narky if I don't give them a response they like sickens me.

I see ABSOLUTELY no reason why I have to put up with any of those things. I have a choice to come here and devote my time to people who ask questions free of charge. If I choose to come here and answer questions I have a every right to expect

a) that all those who I answer questions for would accept my answers and not become petulant when it isn't the answer they want and start accusing me of ****.

that I am NOT going to be allowed to be a target for Schrodi.

I've given out to Steve about this before in saying he needs to curb people like Schrodi and others more but Steve wants to be seen to be scrupulously fair since (just my opinion) if he bans one person then it's "the company" banning the person etc.

However, why have none of the people in this thread ever publicly stated that they also find Schrodi's behaviour unacceptable?

Why is it NOT ok for me to get upset when someone is being petulant and people feel free to post about how "bad" I am to get annoyed when someone dismisses 4 or 5 researched posts cause their "opinion is different" BUT barely a whimper goes up when someone like Schrodi lets rip with, frankly, actionable crap?

Quite frankly I think the group as a whole needs to understand it, as a whole, can set the tone for the forum. If people stand idly by then they are going to let the tone be set by others. I have brought attention to this MANY times throughout the history of the forum and have stated that people should begin saying what is and isn't acceptable.

I've been one of only two or three people who has stepped in to defend people whose native language isn't English when they are misinterpreted etc and who has tried to defuse tension when that happens. I've stopped far more fights than I've ever been involved in.

MORE PEOPLE NEED TO SPEAK UP AND SAY CERTAIN BEHAVIOURS AREN'T ACCEPTABLE. Otherwise people like me are going to continue to be driven off the forum. It's happened already. I've received messages from people who have left because of the degeneration. These are GOOD people, at least as good as anyone who visits today who have left cause of the antics of Schrodi and others and because of the fanaticism which has been creeping into certain people with respect to viewpoints.

You're just going to keep haemorrhaging people like me who devote time and effort but get nothing but abuse and insults in return and we'll be replaced by more Schrodi's and people who think an opinion is evidence.

Until such time as forum members start publicly saying that certain behaviours (such as that post I quoted earlier) are utterly unwarranted and that severe action should be taken against people like that who aren't contributing to this forum one jott I amn't going to post and neither are many others who left in disgust before me.

Huron,

I can categorically state I wasn't referring to your post when I posted in the faust thread and I'd appreciate if you could maybe make a post to that thread to make that clear. Perhaps you could include Schrodi's post (quoted above) to show what I WAS upset about.

Rommel,

No more iron whip. I'm not going to be around in normal threads ( I will probably post to threads discussing what can be done about the situation etc) until something is done. If nothing is done and I still post then all I will ensure is that people will simply take potshots at me every week or fortnight and quite frankly I gain VERY little from posting to the board. I do so out of my own goodwill BUT when no-one on this board is willing to point out the unacceptability of posts like Schrodi's against me then I feel little to no goodwill for the forum members as a whole.

Individually ANY and ALL forum members are welcome to email me in private of course but as a group I am immensely dissapointed in you all. If something is wrong then you must say so and stand up and be counted. It might get you in fights you might otherwise avoid but I firmly believe it is the morally correct thing to do and it avoids paralleling the whole WW2 Germany thing where the civil populace said the Holocaust was "not our business".

Dar and Los, you're welcome to your opinions. I don't agree with you and Los, in particular I find what you say regrettable. I hope you find Schrodi's continuing posting more informative than mine.

It's attitudes such as those you express which make me feel I'm making the right decision in leaving.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Fionn]

Scott Clinton,

It's great to see your first post in roughly two weeks is an attack on me. There's something OH so characteristic about that.

Would you like to tell everyone about the emails you sent me for DAYS after I disagreed with you last? Would you like to tell them how I asked you to stop on 4 separate occasions but had you send abusive emails to my home address for a further 3 days or how I copied them and sent them to Steve in desparation since you wouldn't stop sending them to me and he wouldn't believe how abusive you were being and how abusive you became even though I repeatedly and simply asked you only to stop emailing me?

In my book you're nothing better than a stalker and you have some gall coming on here after spamming my personal account with abuse for 4 days when all I asked was for you to stop sending abusive email to me and to leave things as they were after the thread was closed.

I don't believe ONLY I know what's right for CM. I DO believe some things you suggested were wrong but only in your twisted world does that seem to be a crime.

PLEASE try to justify the repeated spamming of my home email account for four days in the presence of CLEAR statements from me asking you to please stop as I didn't want to continue any fight we had about the nahverteidigungswaffe when ALL I asked from you was some data and research (EXACTLY what I asked from Howardb) ?

THIS is the kind of crap these guys carry on off-forum which all you forum members don't hear about but which informs my comments.

I'm sick of being told I'm over-reacting when my WIFE has to open email from these guys and see abuse and racist taunts flowing out.

I AM SICK OF IT !!! ESPECIALLY when these guys then come onto the forum and are all "oh, Fionn wouldn't listen to my point about something where all I had was my opinion."

Scott I asked for a little research on your part. You chose not to do it so I decided not to change my mind and opinion in the absence of research. That you took up cyber-stalking because of that is NOT my problem.

And if you want to talk apologies, where's the one to my wife for having her read your putrid lies when she opened one of your emails when she went on the computer and come to our bedroom shaken by the viciousness of what you wrote eh?

Where's THAT apology Mr Cyberstalker.

Now, I didn't make any of that public at the time but to have the gall to post here and take on that "wounded role" you do oh so well is sickening to me since I know what you did behind the scenes.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Dar]

Fionn,

I'm sorry you feel so emotional about this issue. However, I have to point out to you that it takes two (or more) to engage in these fights you mention.

What do you care if these people disagree with you? Do you think everyone else on this board is an ignorant schmoe that can't read and decipher the truth for himself? Let your posts speak for themselves--the factual ones, not the emotional, retaliatory ones!

You are gaining integrity and respect everytime you post a factual and enlightening article. You are losing it whenever you fight back with the same tactics your accusers use.

Worse, by responding as you have you've let them know that they can get under your skin and it's encouraging them. Lay off the rebuttals, keep to the facts in your replies or don't reply at all and let the thread die on the vine on its own. You're only feeding the fire and appeasing their egos.

Dar

[This message has been edited by Dar (edited 12-09-99).]

[Los]

What the hell did I say wrong???? I was agreeing with Dar about how reasonable everyone is in this BBS and trying to say what a great place this is! (Though i can see I wasn't clear about that and you might thinking I was agreeing with the ego statement. Sorry, MY BAD!) I had absollutely nothing negative at all to say about anyone in here, it was suposed to be a compliment of all participants. I didn't relaize that this was supposed to be a "Fionn is a bad person thread", I thought it was a "this bbs is a great forum where most of the people show respect and restraint" thread. Like I'm doing now.

Cheers.

Los

p.s. please remove me from everyone's ****list!

[Peter Western]

Oh no, it's like one of my favorite characters from a soap opera has just died.

[This message has been edited by Peter Western (edited 12-09-99).]

[Fionn]

Sorry Dar, I don't buy it.

It might take two or more to engage in them BUT very often they take the form of me asking for proof and the other person simply getting agitated and overly aggressive.

Your "all can share the blame" attitude doesn't hold there IMO.

Also, have you read Schrodi's latest post? HOW did I provoke that? GO back to the thread he started last in which he was abusive. Have a look at that. I think it will quite easily prove you wrong when you say it takes two to start these things. It is QUITE possible for one person to be so off-kilter so as to start fights with others.

Ok, going from "what do you care if they disagree with you" to "do you think everyone else on this board is an ignorant schmoo" is putting words into my mouth.

I do NOT think most people on this board are ignorant schmoos. I DO think some like Scott Clinton, Schrodi and others are gunning for me (and that's not paranoia since they can be shown to have "come after me" just like Schrodi did today again.).

I don't care if someone disagrees with me. That's fine, BUT it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with them does it?

You make it sound like I'm wrong to let my opinion be heard? Is that what you're saying? I respect their opinions and usually ask for proof to back their views up. If they get belligerent when asked for proof it's not my fault is it? No, it's their problem.

The rest of your post is not amusing even. Seemingly I get in trouble when I get annoyed that someone attacks me on the forum. Well gees, here's a newsflash for everyone, IF people simply agreed to some PENALTIES to these attacks they'd stop and I wouldn't be left sitting up here like a big target for these people to take potshots at.

Dar, I don't give a damn if it lets them know they get under my skin. At this point it's a simple matter. Either I can come back to a forum in which I'm not going to be open to attack by these guys OR I stay away.

As a member of this forum I believe I have a right to expect to come here without being attacked baselessly by Schrodi and his ilk ( NOTE: I am NOT comparing Howardb and others to Schrodi. Howardb and I might disagree and I might think he's unreasonable but he hasn't gotten anywhere as abusive as Schrodi.). At present Schrodi and Scott and others are free to say whatever they want about me and barely receive a slap on the wrist.

I get MORE POSTS directed against ME when I get annoyed at something like Howard's intransingence than Schrodi does for racist comments aimed against me.

Some people (and I think you are one Dar although I say this with absolutely no rancour but merely as a statement of fact) are operating massive double standards. I am NOT paid to be here. I'm simply a member of the public who likes answering questions. I get very little from being on here. My wife doesn't like the amount of time I spend every day answering questions AND if I come on here and am allowed to be attacked but am chastised and villified if I speak up then I'll stop coming for sure.

There has to be balance. They should not be allowed attack me in this manner. It's a simple statement and one I think no-one would disagree with.

If it hurts me there is NO reason I need put up with it. Things which hurt people in the real world are outlawed. I think the same should happen here to the worst offenders (and only the worst.. people with racist taunts etc like Schrodi).

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Peter Western]

Oh,.. not fully dead yet

[Fionn]

Los,

I felt that "Intelligence does not confer in and of itself any type of social skill or grace or ability to work together or get along together. "

Might have been directed at me given the umm, topics of discussion on the thread.

Sorry Los but after some of the stuff today I'm a bit upset. I don't see HOW anyone could feel Schrodi's post 9which is what has me upset) could be allowable.

Consider yourself removed with an apology for ever having been put there.

Sorry,

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

Ps. Peter, not fully dead. I intend to respond here in the hopes that maybe something will occur to maybe change and harden the policy on the forum against abuse. I am hoping people will simply say the kind of abuse that Schrodi gives is uncalled for and he should be banned if it happens again. Like I said, I only want his extreme level of abuse to be stopped in future. I have no problems with the basic disagreements which occur in threads every day. It's stuff like Schrodi's posts that are unacceptable. I'd be banned in a second if I made fun of blacks or homosexuals etc but it seems to be ok for him to label me as a drunk, mentally deficient Irishman? Something is WRONG there. If I can post and know I'm not going to be accosted for no reason then I'll rejoin the general forum. In the meantime I'll discuss this issue in this thread.

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 12-09-99).]

[Dar]

Fionn,

If you leave the forum, then your detractors/attackers have won. Is that what you want?

Dar

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Fionn,

You are a pitiful individual. What makes you think I was speaking of you much less singling you out as an individual and the only one to which I was referring?

I don't see anything in my two sentences that refer to you…unless you are admitting to the behavior I described.

Get the cross off of your back and the chip off of your shoulder. I have not directly addressed you since the two-day flame tirade you issued against me while I was out of town and the subsequent THREE emails I sent to you. That's right, three emails. From which you happily replied four times in your typical verbose style with pointed questions…and accusations. You even felt the need to try to drag Steve into it…even when he had already asked to be left out of it.

Fact is Fionn: I was not referring to you in particular. If it struck a cord then perhaps you should take a long hard look at yourself and the unwarranted attack YOU just made in this thread.

> I don't believe ONLY I know what's right for CM. I DO believe some things you suggested

> were wrong but only in your twisted world does that seem to be a crime."

What exactly did I ever suggest for CM? I can't really think of much myself. Perhaps you would like to enlighten me. Or are you just blowing hot air again to confuse the issue?

> PLEASE try to justify the repeated spamming of my home email account for four days in

> the presence of CLEAR statements from me asking you to please stop as I didn't want to

> continue any fight we had about the nahverteidigungswaffe when ALL I asked from you

> was some data and research (EXACTLY what I asked from Howardb) ?

Bull. I sent three emails, you sent me back four replays. As a matter of fact in that entire thread I offered NO opinion at all. I simply asked BTS for some sources as to the weapon system because I was unable to locate any good sources…to which YOU chimed in and flamed away for over two days!. You were out of line and you have been told so by more than just me.

> THIS is the kind of crap these guys carry on off-forum which all you forum members don't

> hear about but which informs my comments.

No, this is the kind of world you live in Fionn. You know damn well I offered no opinion in that thread and you also know just as well I have refrained from addressing you at all after it became clear you were not man enough to admit when you were wrong in the unwarranted flame session you conducted for two days while I was out of town and not even present on the board.

> Scott I asked for a little research on your part. You chose not to do it so I decided not to

> change my mind and opinion in the absence of research. That you took up cyber-stalking

> because of that is NOT my problem.

That's a lie. You never asked for any research. Why would you, as I never offered a differing opinion! This entire fantasy of yours makes no sense Fionn! And if my THREE emails that were sooooo bad why is it you felt so compelled to respond with FOUR emails of even greater length and detail?! You truly do live in a fantasy world.

> And if you want to talk apologies, where's the one to my wife for having her read your

> putrid lies when she opened one of your emails when she went on the computer and come

> to our bedroom shaken by the viciousness of what you wrote eh?

Show me a single lie that I posted or emailed and I will apologize. That is the difference between us Fionn.

> Where's THAT apology Mr Cyberstalker.

Name calling now? I would expect as much from you. When your arguments lack any basis in reality result to the most baseless thing possible.

For the record, once again: I was not referring to SINGLE person, but instead to a behavior I have seen exhibited by quite a few people on this forum.

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Fionn]

Dar,

It's not about winning. It's about being free from unwarranted abuse (a basic human right IMO).

Frankly this is far more important than simply saying they win if they hound me out. It will set the tone for the future development of this board over the coming years IMO.

As a human being I have a right to go about my business without being abused without reason ( a la Schrodi). Someone disagreeing strongly with me is fine but extreme levels of unwarranted abuse is not.

Quite honestly the lack of forum member condemnation of Schrodi etc greatly saddens me and as I've said before I'm becoming more dissapointed by the hour as forum members for some reason appear to be unwilling or think it unecessary to condemn Schrodi's conduct.

More than that I am giving the forum members a choice..

The simple fact is that I will NOT leave myself open to unwarranted personal attacks. You may think I should or may think I should not. That's not the issue. The issue is that I simply won't

This leaves two options. Either:

a) the forum is made a place in which there is no tolerance for such attacks and people who make the kind of attacks Schrodi made (and don't apologise ... since I recognise everyone can make mistakes) are warned and possibly banned or

I choose to avoid this forum since these sorts of attacks are only going to continue.

A man who walks into a minefield unknowingly, has made a mistake. A man who steps back into that minefield is a fool.

I'd be a fool to rejoin the forum and be attacked again and again when I know full-well that to rejoin it in its present operating will lead to more unwarranted attacks.

Rather than advising me to simply accept the attacks of Schrodi et al why don't you concentrate on saying that his conduct is unacceptable and let him and everyone else on the forum know it is unacceptable and ask that it be punished if it happens again?

I'm not asking for vengeance or anything here. I'm simply asking for something to safeguard me against further attacks. I'm not a masochist who enjoys these attacks and therefore I refuse to subject myself to more of them for the amusement of some members of this board.

IF anyone reading this values my contributions than it's quite simple. I will post so long as I know that either:

a) Schrodi and others won't attack me or

IF they do attack me that they may be banned for doing so.

I think that that is eminently reasonable. I see no reason that abusers be allowed abuse because society (the forum members) simply don't want to act. If you value my contributions as much as sometimes you say you do then I simply don't understand why you (collectively speaking here of course) think it's ok for Schrodi to behave as he has.(and others have also of course).

At least I am having the courage to make an issue of this and am having the courage to say I'm willing to walk away from this forum rather than allow these people to continue sniping at me.

I'm an intensely moral person in my own way and I do believe that the collective (forum members in this case) had a need to ensure that some level of moral and ethical behaviour is observed wherever that collective finds itself interacting (in this case the forum).

This is merely what I'm suggesting. People who behave unacceptably should be told they are behaving unacceptably and, if their behaviour continues to be unacceptable and features more wanton, unprovoked attacks against others then they should be prevented from making such attacks.

It's hardly a radical idea and is not curbing the freedome to speek on-topic but merely the current rampant freedom to abuse others.

Ps. Scott, as far as that email thing goes... You are telling untruths. I don't want to get into a whole thing about it since you know Steve asked me not to but boy oh boy do I stand by what I said.

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 12-09-99).]

[Ben Galanti]

Fionn,

Pure speculation on my part, but I would suspect (or at least hope) that the reason that there was no real response to Schrodi's post is the fact that it's easiest to just ignore a troll's post and chances are they'll go away. At least, that's the reason I just left it be. Granted, it's much easier to do so when you're not the target of said troll.

[Guest Lokesa]

Could you guys go private when you want to discuss personal stuff. No need to air other peoples laundry. Thank you

[Mattias]

Anyone who has followed this chat for more than two weeks and has half a brain knows that loosing Fionn would be a severe blow, no less.

He is judged more often by his mistakes and outbursts, that are numerous simply because he posts such a massive amount of answers. While, on the other hand, the vastly more common, level headed, polite and informed answers from him are seemingly measured differently.

This curious anomaly in some of the posters perception makes for plenty small minded posts indeed…

Not one of you can match him in dedication to CM, thoroughness, quality and quantity of answers and readiness to stand up when it comes to facing the most inane of questions and responses.

Not one of you.

You would be sorely lost by many, Fionn, should you decide to leave… but then again, had I been you I would have been out of here weeks ago…

M.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Fionn:

> Ps. Scott, as far as that email thing goes... You are telling untruths.

> I don't want to get into a whole thing about it since you know

> Steve asked me not to but boy oh boy do I stand by what I said.

LOL!! LOL!!

How can anyone take you seriously Fionn!

You don't want to get into it! AFTER you post a message of over 500 words attacking me and calling me names! Real convenient, huh? Too bad, but you already did…over a post not even directed at you.

NOW you don't want to 'get into it'. No, of course not. Because I made it clear that you were ONCE AGAIN wrong and I was NOT addressing you nor taking the offensive tone YOU imparted. Hell, I even went further and stated that if I misspoke in an email and upset your wife I would apologize…

Geee, I can see how after that you would not want to get into it…LOL!

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Guest JonS]

Knock it off Scott - your pecker contest with Fionn isn't really that interesting, or worthwhile. Neither was your behind the scenes attempt to muster numbers to your point of view.

Jon.

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Quo Fas et Vino du Femme

[Guest Scott Clinton]

'suse me?

As I recall I emailed you directly as PER YOUR REQUEST.

I asked for a clarification as to where you got the impression you did from the forum...you answered me quite well and admitted that you read meaning into my post that was not there...or do you deny that now?

...then added a few pointed questions...and continued to do so for two more emails. I made the mistake of responding...

When I made it clear it was over as far as I was conserned...you still emailed me again. Happily, when I again stated it was over you saw fit to drop it.

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The Grumbling Grognard

[Guest Big Time Software]

EVERYBODY KNOCK IT OFF.

This is total, absolute, childish behavior on all sides of any fight. Scott and Fionn know my feelings on the previous fight, and there is no reason to get it going again.

Although Max had good intentions starting this up, looks like some folks want it to be a platform for pissing matches. Sorry, we'll have no part of it.

Steve