Casualties

[Chris Jenkins]

What percent of casualties will return during a campaign game? Will it be lower during winter scenarios (frostbite, ect.)?

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Climb to Glory!

[Guest Big Time Software]

Really not sure, but it will be variable depending on side, how well each did during the battle, and date.

Steve

[Chris Jenkins]

From what I can gather, it's about:

25% KIA

10% DOW

5% Medical Discharge (maimed, PTSD, etc.)

55% WIA

5% Return to Duty (RTD)

Don't forget the lack of care for encircled units and winter weather. Can't wait to see this game. Whatever the figures (all grognards have an axe to grind) it's going to be a valuable tool. I start at Arizona State University on August 17th as a History major. I'll be concentrating on Europe and WWII. Maybe I'll get to meet John Keagan someday.

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Climb to Glory!

[CRourke]

Interesting figures..

What exactly is DOW? Died of wounds?

Those figures all seem to be based on medical cases. I think the sort of casualties that CM counts will include the whole spectrum of combat ineffective, thus you might see more stragglers and whatnot returning by the next battle.

Chris

[Guest Big Time Software]

Chris, Chris is right (ah, the Rourke one ) CM's casualties run the range from frozen with fear to a lost limb. A good general rule of thumb for physical casualties is that there are about 3 woundings for every death. One is very short term (i.e. nicked) and is back in action within hours, or a day or so. 1 wounding is medium term, and requires some sort of rear area treatment, but the soldier gets back to the front. The other is wounded to the point of never being able to go back into combat, or dying because of wounds. This is, obviously, a gross generality. I have detailed casualty figures, but I don't feel like looking them up

Taking the above into mind, technically you should get back about 10-25% of your casualties back after a battle or two. These guys would come back even sooner if the unit was cut off. The other 2 out of 3 wounded would not be back within CM's timeframe, so they don't factor in at all.

Because we simulate other forms of ineffectives, the number returning is likely to be higher. Depending on resources, you might also get replacements, and that will make it higher still.

Steve

Steve

[Herr Oberst]

What about the BOMB casualties???

Where BOMB means blew-off-my-butt.

Sorry, just watched the Thin Red Line, and just had to post this one...

[Guest Big Time Software]

If one cheek were blown off, I would put that down as a medium casualty. Whole butt? Out for good! Most of a soldier's life is spent sitting around, so if you have no butt, you are not going to be a "productive" soldier

Steve

[Mike D]

If the lightly wounded boys (whatever percentage that ends up being) are going to return in a campaign game at some point how and where do they come back? Are they basically treated as an increase to the replacement pool? How are replacements/returning wounded allocated to the units currently under the players command? Do the players choose which squads / teams get the replacements, or does the computer do this for us? Do the wounded return to their original squad (I imagine it isn't really necessary for them to do so, just curious)? For regular replacements, what level of experience, etc., do they come in at? I.e. green, veteran, etc.? Do the wounded come back at some disadvantage like reduced movement, or other capabilities, to simulate their not being at 100% effectiveness? Or are you going to assume that whatever wounded do return are basically at, or very near, full effectiveness?

In addition to infantry replacements will their be some pool of replacement / reserve vehicles (i.e. tanks, etc.) available in a campaign game to represent the players company, battalion, or regiment reserves that might become availble during the course of a campaign game?

Mike D

aka Mikester

[This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 07-14-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Since we do not track the qualities of an individual soldier, most of the answers to your questions are "no, not relevant". I have also talked to Charles and we both agree that it is not realistic, even in a day long campaign, to get fresh individual replacements. Units were generally withdrawn from combat for this to happen, and this is outside of CM's scope.

What happens is that a random number of a unit's ineffective (including lightly wounded) come back after each battle. The number is based on 15%+/- chance for each vacant slot. So in a Platoon with 2 casualties each squad, you might get back one or two men for the whole platoon. Replacements are assumed to be going back to their original unit, so there is no change of weapons or quality level.

The way we handle replacement vehicles depends on if the crew survived. If you have, say, 5 crews, you will have a very good chance of getting a couple of vehicles back. The chance increases if the vehicle was only slightly damaged and if it ended the battle in friendly territory. Night also increases the chance of recovery. If you lose your crews... you don't get replacements.

Steve

[Mike D]

Sounds reasonable to me. I was thinking more along the lines of a "campaign" perhaps lasting a couple of days which is where the replacements question came about in that they might be drawn from company, or battalion rear area units if the situation were desperate enough. Of course, as you say, this is likely outside of the scope of the game any way you cut it.

"Replacements are assumed to be going back to their original unit, so there is no change of

weapons or quality level."

So the returning injured men come back w/ their weapons? Assuming this is true, what happens if they are some of the less fortunate among the injured and they don't return, then what happens to their weapons? Say a squad does indeed lose 2 members during round 1 of a campaign game to injury and one of those members was the LMG/BAR carrier and he is out of the war for good. Is the LMG/BAR lost w/ the injured soldier, or is it considered to be reallocated to someone else in the squad? I guess the same question would apply to KIA soldiers and their weapons. Are they recovered and allocated back to the squad in between campaign game segments, or are they simply lost? If the weapons of fallen friendlies can be "recovered" by the owning squad in between actions in a campaign (perhaps there is a random chance of this occuring say between 30-60% of the time) is there then an additional random chance (say anywhere from 10-30% of the time) that the weapon itself was destroyed or otherwise damaged beyond repair so as to be unuseable even if it is recovered? I know, alot of dumb questions, I'm just curious if the game simulates the reality of a squad doing everything in its power to recover key weapons like LMG's, etc., from their fallen buddies. Especially those carried by their fellow squad mates.

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Guest Big Time Software]

Units will try to hold on to their SAW (to use the current term) during a battle. This means if a SAW man is hit there is a chance that a rifleman will pick it up. However, this chance is only a chance. If you don't get lucky, you don't keep it. Until someone comes back to your unit to man the weapon, it is lost. Obviously this is abstract, as the returning guy might not have his weapon and not be able to find the same one he last had. Also, inbetween battles is enough time to recover (perhaps) discarded weapons. Unfortunately, doing this stuff requires a lot of "book keeping" and therefore isn't in the game. Maybe next time

Steve

[Mike D]

Steve,

I guess I will have to respectfully disagree w/ the following. That is of course assuming that I'm understanding what you are saying:

"Units will try to hold on to their SAW (to use the current term) during a battle. This means if a SAW man is hit there is a chance that a rifleman will pick it up. However, this chance is only a chance. If you don't get lucky, you don't keep it. Until someone comes back to your unit to man the weapon, it is lost."

While I by no means claim to be any sort of expert on the subject I believe that common sense and the following excerpt from Gajkowski's, German Squad Tactics World War II (based on 1943 tranlation by the Military Intelligence Service of an actual German training manual believed to be used circa 1940-42) seem to greatly contradict the above statement. Perhaps you are already familiar w/ this book, or perhaps not.

In this book on page 2 and 3 we see a description of what I would call a German LMG squad consisting of the following:

A Gruppenfuhrer (squad leader)

A LMG Soldier 1 (machinegunner)

A LMG Soldier 2 (asst. to the machinegunner)

A LMG Soldier 3 (mg ammo carrier)

And 4-9 Gewehrschutzen (riflemen) one of which is the Truppfuhrer (asst. squad leader)

Very specfic duties are laid out for each of the above. The ones pertinent to this disccusion are:

Gruppenfuhrer: Among other things responsible for directing the fire of the LMG and if possible the Gewehrschutzern (as you read this work this is one of his main jobs).

LMG Soldier 1: Firing the LMG and maintenance of LMG

LMG Soldier 2: Assistant of the Richtschutze (machinegunner) in battle. He insures the supply of ammo. He assists the machine gunner going into position and preparing to fire. Then, he usually lies on the left side, or left and to the rear, of the 1MG as much as possible in full cover. He remains lying beside the 1MG if there is cover or fire superiority. He is always ready to aid the machine gunner or if necessary, to replace him.

LMG Soldier 3: Primarily resp. for keeping the 1 and 2 MG guys supplied w/ ammo. In a fire fight he lies behind the 1MG in full cover.

In any event what I see described here are 3 dedicated MG men and a squad leader that most likely more often than not is right there in the vicinty as well. Two of whom (asst. and ammo dude) are going to be pretty well tucked away when the bullets start flying. Given this, it seems highly unlikey to me that in the event that the 1MG guy goes down (he is certain to draw a lot of fire) that the asst. machinegunner, ammo carrier, or even the squad leader would be right there to take over. So the likelihood that this weapon would be immediately picked up and fire resumed by the asst machine gunner, etc., in this event seems very high to me (i.e. chance that it wouldn't be picked up is pretty darn low) Unless, of course, a heavy artillery round or overrunning tank or ambush takes them all out at nearly the same time.

The part of your statement about the weapon not being available until someone (the machinegunner?) comes back to the unit (assumed to only be injured I guess) doesn't seem to make any sense either. Again, if there are 2 or 3 other guys around in the immediate vicinity of the machinegunner when he goes down they are most certainly (high probability) going to pick up this weapon to use it and/or at least recover it. In fact it is the 2MG mans responsibility to do so. And if the machingunner is KIA/WIA and doesn't return it sure sounds to me like someone else in that squad is going to use that weapon in the next round of combat (i.e. thinking campaign game here), not to mention in the current round as well.

In any event in the case of the German LMG squad "chance" and "luck" would seem to have very little to do w/ the recovery of the LMG for use in the current battle, or later battle(s). Where luck would come into play is if the Brit/US squad got lucky in waxing all 3 of the MG detail soldiers in the German squad.

In the case of the British LMG/Bren squad I would highly imagine the case is similar to the German one above. Only difference I could see here is that the Bren was magazine vs. belt fed and probably w/ lower rate of fire (in comparison to MG 34 or 42) didn't need a third man dedicated to ammo detail. So I would imagine the asst. to the Bren gunner would carry ammo and assist as needed, as well as jump in if the gunner went down and/or recover the weapon for futre use, etc.

As far as the American BAR squad goes, I would think that this case would perhaps be more along the lines of what you have described. I.e. there is no asst. or ammo carrier to the BAR dude so he is in effect going it alone except for whatever other squad mates are nearby. So if he goes down I could see that the chance of someone picking up the weapon to use it in the current battle, or recovering it to use in a later battle, would be lower than the German/British situation noted above.

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Fionn]

Mike,

The assistant MG42 gunner had to hold the ammo belts in his hands as they were being fed into the MG to prevent them kinking on their way to the MG and causing a jam.

End result he would actually be exactly shoulder to shoulder with the MG gunner and in direct position to take over immediately if the MG gunner died. If this happened the 3rd person would move up and assume the role of the assistant and ensure no jams occured.

In other words, there would generally be enough people there to keep that MG firing after 1 or even 2 casualties.

[Mike D]

Fionn,

Thanks for the input. Sounds more and more like chance has very little to do w/ use / recover of the LMG in a German squad if the machinegunner goes down due to WIA or KIA.

Mike

[Chris Jenkins]

Given Mike D's post, does that mean that a nine-man squad would have seven rifles and one LMG firing? The assistant machinegunner would be holding the links.

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Climb to Glory!

[Simon Fox]

I don't think so Chris. The LMG number three would probably not be firing either. I suspect the squad leader would probably have a machine pistol and if directing the MG probably wouldn't be firing either. Therefore most likely 1MG plus 6 rifles. Then considering statistics suggest that not all riflemen fire in combat......hehe

[Guest Big Time Software]

Well, having just put 100 rounds through a HMG 42 this weekend, I think I can say a thing or two about this

The "chance" that a LMG will be retained if the gunner is hit is just that. It is a chance. The more riflemen that are around, the greater the chance. What Mike has forgot about is that the assistant and #3 man could have become casualties BEFORE the gunner himself. So when the gunner gets hit, there is nobody to take over. Also, there is a chance that the weapon could be out of order due to the hits on the gunner. Enemy small arms and mortar fire can easily damage an MG because of its size and the plethra of moving parts. MGs are simply not as robust as something like a rifle.

BTW, a 2 man crew is almost escential for a MG to remain firing. Even when the belts are set up, someone really needs to be there to feed the beast. Jams, barrel overheats, misfires (I had 2 myself), etc. all need attention. A lone gunner can fire, but its RoF is reduced. I am pretty sure CM already does this, but I will double check.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 07-18-99).]

[Los]

Howdy guys,

Just returned from a few weeks away. Re: LMG pickup. The squad would attempt to retain the gun as long as there was anyone left standing. It was and remains SOP in just about every major army in the world since the damn things came into service.

The first thing you do during consolidate and reorganize (a drill one does a often at the completion or a pause in firefights or even while there's one going on) is re-man your crew served or greatest casaulty producing weapons.

Of course none of this runs against anything Steve is saying since the chance that it is retained can be a function of training and experience. Though even experienced squads could lose a turn of more of usage as they get someonme one to the weapon as it is likely that if the gunner is hit, so is the AG.

BTW when I got back I had a nice package in eth mail with among other things, this incredible video of german panzer and PG operations (called Panzer Marsch!)made during WW2 for training. It shows in Panther A/Ds vsions blocks being smashed from MG fire during combat, and the drill they go through to rapidly replace them. (takes a few seconds). It even shows the proper way to grind any fighting popsitions into pulp. This is in answer to another post somewhere. ANother film takes a regimental defense and it's reserve company (a plt of PGs, a plt of JgdpzIVs, and a flammenwerfer section) through the entire planning and execution phase. Awesome footage, dialogue and graphics. If anyone has any doubt that our current doctrine is lifted nearly verbatim from theGermans they need only watch this. (there's even some humourous banter too) I ordered it through JJ. Fedorowitz which I believe is at:

Los