Pixman Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 Steeeeeevvee!! You closed the big thread as I was posting. Totally lost. 2 hours down the tubes of something I can never again recreate -- much to everybody's happiness I'm sure, lol. Fionn, your last post indicated that you understand very very little about my attitudes toward different cultures and religions including Muslims. I contend that you carried many more assumptions about my attitudes into your writing than I did about Muslims into my writing. I would love to go into it all again, but it is just too late and I am too tired. I do ask that you be careful with words like "racist" and "Western conceit". They, especially the former, are very strong and I take exception to any such labels. If I misinterpreted your meaning, then please disregard. Mattias, I was not condemning the German legal system, just describing it as it was taught to me in college. The prof made a big deal about it having no common law component like the English system has. He also asserted that it revealed an underlying society that is paternalistic, rule based and authoritarian. These, too, were not condemnations, but comments on why the German people might respond so strongly to a message like Hitler's. I just got done writing MUCH more on this, but again I plea too much fatigue to attempt it again. Please trust that I have great respect for the German people and their commitment to justice. Your opening paragraph about my belief in "absolute values" and their universal applicability to all races, religions, etc. is right on the money. I am sorry if my post sounded otherwise. Schlaf gut. Pixman ------------------ Fact is the enemy of truth. - Don Quixote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 Pixman, A little hint from the king of diatribes himself. Never, ever, ever, write a long diatribe directly into the little editing window here on the board. Instead, do it in Word or other word processor and then copy paste it into here and submit. Not only does this prevent what happened to you, but it is also infinitely easier to see what you are writing in a word processor window vs. this little tiny window here on the board. Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 Hi, Pixman. I've come in to the thread just now, so I don't know who said what to whom, but here goes. I run a small IT consultancy. We have several standing rules, of which the first is: never discuss sex, politics, or religion with the client. Because in each area, many or most people hold strong opposing views, full of emotion that limits the ability to have a civil discussion and get on with the day. Our guys are taught to steer the conversation into less-controversial subjects. Besides, as long as they're talking about those three subjects, they can't invoice for their time (segue)... So, how about those sherman calliopes? Sounds like as much fun as a nebelwerfer (sp?) barrage. This is my small and obvious attempt to talk about gaming issues. In my defence, Word97 does not have terms like 'nebelwerfer' in its spelling dictionary. Anybody have a gaming dictionary for Word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixman Posted October 8, 1999 Author Share Posted October 8, 1999 Mikester, good point. I have done that before but failed to last night. I have also never been caught in limbo like that. Live and learn. By the way, I am violating your suggestion as I write, lol. aaronb, could not agree more about avoiding such subjects with clients. However, since we are all just trigger happy lunatics, waiting to get our hands on the game so that we can plot each other's total annihilation, political and religious discussions seem to be a safe pastime. I understand you have just arrived and have not read much of the board yet. If you read the locked thread "something you don't hear much about in school" (going from memory), you will see the evolution of this whole discussion. It is quite fascinating. It will also introduce you to some of the folks who frequent the joint. Welcome aboard by the way. Is your handle related to Aaron Burr? If so, i would be interested to hear your reasoning for choosing it. Pixman ------------------ Fact is the enemy of truth. - Don Quixote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikeman Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 My congratulations to the contributors of "THE LONG LOCKED THREAD". I applaud you all for your civility. On a less civilized level. In CM, are there any incentives to NOT shoot prisoners? Can I get information from them? I don't want to waste manpower guarding them, nor do I want them escaping to fight again 10 turns later. It seems to me this was covered somewhere, but I can't find it. Mikeman out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 Pixman: "If you read the locked thread "something you don't hear much about in school"..." Quite right, the thread explains this one. Since we had seen some near-flaming in other threads, I thought to re-direct this one before it got out of hand. Presumptuous. "so that we can plot each other's total annihilation" Yep, that's the basic attraction, after all the talk about understanding history, etc. Since modern peoples don't fight per se, we need outlets for pent-up urges that may stem from evolved habits. That might explain the overload of guys in wargaming. It certainly explains my martial-arts lessons. "Aaron Burr" vis-a-vis aaronb. Well, nothing so romantic. My 'real' name is Aaron Burns, and almost all of my many, many userid's are 'aaronb', so it seemed most simple to carry it over to this board. Unlike Mr. Burr, I've never needed lethal force while dueling . And I'm beginning to feel lasting loyalty to CM "fact is the enemy of truth" Don had a grain of correctness there - the choice of which facts to present (in a sea of more-or-less-relevant facts) establishes biases re: truth. Hence the victors writing history - they just pick the facts that look best - without actually dissembling. I knew there was a way to move the thread back to armed conflict and its results Before people start to confuse me and Mike D, I'll pass to the next writer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Jones Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 Mikeman, I believe that you get more VP for prisoners than for KIA. What I wonder, is the incentive to not call in artillery on your own troops once they are captured? Is it the fact that the enemy has to waste resources guarding them, or that you take a bigger global morale hit for having guys die as opposed to being captured or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 Sage, guys: I agree with side stepping the religion issue at the sametime if you look at my last thread you'll see it's fairly open and unbiased. The Quran examples I sighted (And by the way I have read the Quran) were just my own observations and, yes I still believe that by no means is Islam a tolerant religion. But if you want to talk to me about religious opinions read my bio and send me your email. I'm pretty sure my bio-contains all the pertinent info you need to contact me. I must admit as the rest of you that the thread was very insightful and most did maintain there composure. Which I think is very honorable. Well done, Lads! One last intersting observation though; it's interesting how a thread about morality eventually leads to Ones spiritual search for the truth? ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 I think that there is still some misunderstanding in how prisoners are handled in CM. As long as you keep them out of the reach of their own side (e.g. behind your lines) you do not have to guard them. It is absolutely safe to send them to the rear without having to keep any of your own units close (unless of course the enemy breaks through your lines). And about killing your own POWs with arty - well, what happens is that if the other player is smart enough to send them to the back quick enough, you simply won't know where they are (unless you have LOS to them). Because unlike some other games (like the one with CC as initials) POWs are invisible for the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 8, 1999 Share Posted October 8, 1999 I'm kind of loathe to post this now at the risk of prolonging this but I wrote it this morning and don't want anyone thinking I was ignoring anyone Pixley, Fionn, your last post indicated that you understand very very little about my attitudes toward different cultures and religions including Muslims. Probably, I don't presume to know your attitudes to others etc simply from corresponding on a board and FWIW I wasn't talking about YOU specifically. I was talking about something I see in most Westerners IN GENERAL. So I wouldn't want you thinking that what I was saying in that thread was what I thought about YOU.. That's not what I was thinking at all. I was making generalised statements which obviously are innaplicable to individuals by virtue of their very generality. I contend that you carried many more assumptions about my attitudes into your writing than I did about Muslims into my writing. I would love to go into it all again, but it is just too late and I am too tired. I do ask that you be careful with words like "racist" and "Western conceit". They, especially the former, are very strong and I take exception to any such labels. If I misinterpreted your meaning, then please disregard. I wouldn't use a work like racist against anyone unless I was really sure Pixley BUT I want to make it clear I wasn't referring to any one person there (and certainly not you).. I was merely stating that Western assumptions about Muslims consist of stereotypes about a group.. Since many of those stereotypes are unflattering to say the least it constitutes a form of institutionalised racism... Wasn't talking about you or anyone else in particular. Also, I was approaching the discussion from the point of view of there being ideas and statements I didn't agree with. There was absolutely nothing personal in there, except insofar as I kind of disagreed with some of your points (as you do with mine hehe ). FWIW I agree with Steve that it's funny when people bring up non-wargaming topics and whole new sides of people are exposed. It's nice to be able to have these types of discussions without them getting all flamewar-like. That's why I like this board and the people on it so much. Hope that makes clear that I wasn't saying anything derogatory about you at all Pixley..Hell, u'd sabotage anything I sent you for proofreading if I did LOL Cheers, ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixman Posted October 10, 1999 Author Share Posted October 10, 1999 Fionn, I'll definitely take the sabotaging comment as a joke, because that I would not do. I asked you about Hindu friends because you mentioned Muslim friends and seem to be worldly and well travelled. I thought you might relate some thoughts from the Hindu perspective. It was a straightforward question. I hoped for a straightforward answer -- and still do. I characterized the incursion into the subcontinent as Muslim because the struggle between Muslims and Hindus in India and Pakistan are legendary. Also, that is how they were described by my professors and by writers such as Durant. I brought it up at all to give a significant example of actions by large armies (that happen to share the Muslim faith) rather than rogue individuals. This was done in response to your assertion that all Muslims get a bad rap for the actions of a few bad apples. I have a better than average understanding of applied statistics and valid sampling techniques. Therefore, I am not prone to generalizing traits of an insignificant sample to the population as a whole. I do not apply a double standard to Muslims and Christians. I have railed against the Crusades, the Inquisition, anti-gay protestors that carry signs saying "God hates fags!" and all other such hypocrisy. I stated clearly that I am not an expert on the Muslim faith and did not write as if I were. I took my lead from you regarding Hitler's desire to have Muslims to manipulate rather than "weak" Christians. I never said a word, nor implied anything, about Muslim "militancy". I abhor Christian arrogance. I reject, and have always rejected, what I call, "Sermon 37". It goes something like, "You know those Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and the like all seem like nice folk, but they are spiritually lost because they do not know Jesus. It is our duty to go out and save them before they are sacrificed to the fires of eternal damnation for being heathens." I dismiss this line of Christian logic as 100% bunk and have told Pastors of several denominations so. I will leave any church that preaches it. I took exception to the "Western conceit" comment because, though I was born in NY and educated here, I have made a point of studying nonwestern cultures. My travels abroad have been minimal so I am limited to what my education and my readings of history, political science, anthropology and geography since school can teach me. I took your comments (many of them anyway) as directed partly at me because you took the care to insert my real name (Pixley) into your post. You did so again above. This makes me curious as to why. One last comment. I strive, as strongly as possible, not to polarize situations or view them through a win/lose paradigm. Therefore, if I comment on atrocities committed by armies that happen to be Muslim, it does not mean I condone, excuse or ignore similar atrocities committed by armies that happen to be Christian. In fact, by allowing them both to be atrocious, we can get to the real issue, which is that organized religion is a polarizing agent that leads to death and destruction, in spite of the ethos modeled by the various religions' heroes. Pixman ------------------ Fact is the enemy of truth. - Don Quixote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 10, 1999 Share Posted October 10, 1999 I put ur name in since the ideas I was dealing with were expressed by you.. Call it habit, nothing more Ps. yes the sabotage comments were a joke of course. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 10, 1999 Share Posted October 10, 1999 Ok, time this thread was closed up too. Not even close to being on topic. Problem is that *I* have to read every post, on topic or not, so the off topic ones will be closed. Not that I haven't enjoyed reading these, but it is a time sink and not at all related to Combat Mission or WWII at this point. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts